The Ultimate turntable?

Mike said:
Darrin - all valid points, but those to me, just seem more of the same. None of these items does anything to eliminate smearing like a counter rotating table. At the end of the day, all these tables are great and provide endless listening enjoyment. And thankfully, we don't have to suffer through a flavor of the month table every month! They are all great and appearance has a lot to do with it too.


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I do believe the innovation sub platter is counter rotating.
 
Dpod4 said:
I do believe the innovation sub platter is counter rotating.
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If you mean the Master Innovation - no it is not. The belt/motor are connected to the lower platter which has embedded magnets in it which in turn attract magnets on the underside of the main platter . They both turn in the same direction. There is no physical connection between the top and bottom platters at all.

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For true innovation solving the problems inherent to belt design I think you have to go all the way to direct drive - at that price range I would get the new $30k deck from VPI and make sure it had a great cartridge like the Goldfinger Statement and a killer phono cable into a killer phono stage. I think there is a real law of diminishing returns on mass loaded (and for that matter suspended) belt drives. I think executing the heck out known principles is a good route. If I want a completely black and noiseless background I turn to digital.
 
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Dpod4 said:
For true innovation solving the problems inherent to belt design I think you have to go all the way to direct drive - at that price range I would get the new $30k deck from VPI and make sure it had a great cartridge like the Goldfinger Statement and a killer phono cable into a killer phono stage. I think there is a real law of diminishing returns on mass loaded (and for that matter suspended) belt drives. I think executing the heck out known principles is a good route. If I want a completely black and noiseless background I turn to digital.
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I agree, the Classic Direct may not look as fancy as a lot of the high end tables, but that's the one I would buy also.
 
I would love to hear a review between the VPI Classic Direct and Wave Kinetics turntable and even the Monaco table

Both direct drive tables and I know how how good direct drive done well is with my Pioneer Exclusive P3

I think you could buy all 3 for the price of the belt drive Air Force AF-1:D


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XV-1 said:
I would love to hear a review between the VPI Classic Direct and Wave Kinetics turntable and even the Monaco table

Both direct drive tables and I know how how good direct drive done well is with my Pioneer Exclusive P3

I think you could buy all 3 for the price of the belt drive Air Force AF-1:D
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In that group, I would add the Dobbin's THE BEAT and the vintage Technics SP10 mk3. Direct comparisons have been made between these two and the Wave Kinetics. I wonder how the VPI compares. I've heard that the VPI DD is being modified/upgraded for its next production run. Perhaps just a rumor.

I would not knock belt drive. The TechDAS AF2 and SME 30/12 were both tested by HiFI NEWS and have extremely good speed results.
 
PeterA said:
In that group, I would add the Dobbin's THE BEAT and the vintage Technics SP10 mk3. Direct comparisons have been made between these two and the Wave Kinetics. I wonder how the VPI compares. I've heard that the VPI DD is being modified/upgraded for its next production run. Perhaps just a rumor.

I would not knock belt drive. The TechDAS AF2 and SME 30/12 were both tested by HiFI NEWS and have extremely good speed results.
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Add those two for sure, but the Technics is hard to get.

Of course not forgetting the belt drives. I would also love to hear either Tech Das. I can quite easily get to hear the AF-2 , but can't afford it so don't want to waste the importers time.

Cheers
 
PeterA said:
In that group, I would add the Dobbin's THE BEAT and the vintage Technics SP10 mk3. Direct comparisons have been made between these two and the Wave Kinetics. I wonder how the VPI compares. I've heard that the VPI DD is being modified/upgraded for its next production run. Perhaps just a rumor.

I would not knock belt drive. The TechDAS AF2 and SME 30/12 were both tested by HiFI NEWS and have extremely good speed results.
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Good post peter, There are so many wonderful turntables around and have been able to hear and live with a fair few. I have come to the conclusion there is no ultimate but may be one or two that float our boat that little bit extra.

I have recently been living with the Airforce one with a Devinci Vertu tonearm, and a steve dobbins Kodo Beat with the vintage air tangent Reference tonearm with added refrigeration. I also have a sme 30/12 with a sme v-12. I do love the airforce one and is a wonderful example of Japanese excellence it is a stunning beast and so are the Beat and the humble 30/12. I have been listening very carefully recently and contemplating. I do love the solid foundation of my Airforce one simply stunning sense of control just awesome. The airforce one is very similar in many ways to the superbly engineered 30/12 just on a grander scale. The turntable for me that does float my boat a little more in the way of sounding more human and musically natural and forced is my Beat/Airtangent combination now maybe its just me but it just sound so enjoyable in everyday. While the airforce is very impressive it does not have the same musical impact yes it is big and powerful but for me seems to rob the music. The only problem with my statement is that the arms are all different so intact until I start interchanging them I won't get the real picture. The fact is they are all great if i could fit in a few more Turntables I would as they are all lovely objects to own.
 
avatar108 said:
Good post peter, There are so many wonderful turntables around and have been able to hear and live with a fair few. I have come to the conclusion there is no ultimate but may be one or two that float our boat that little bit extra.

I have recently been living with the Airforce one with a Devinci Vertu tonearm, and a steve dobbins Kodo Beat with the vintage air tangent Reference tonearm with added refrigeration. I also have a sme 30/12 with a sme v-12. I do love the airforce one and is a wonderful example of Japanese excellence it is a stunning beast and so are the Beat and the humble 30/12. I have been listening very carefully recently and contemplating. I do love the solid foundation of my Airforce one simply stunning sense of control just awesome. The airforce one is very similar in many ways to the superbly engineered 30/12 just on a grander scale. The turntable for me that does float my boat a little more in the way of sounding more human and musically natural and forced is my Beat/Airtangent combination now maybe its just me but it just sound so enjoyable in everyday. While the airforce is very impressive it does not have the same musical impact yes it is big and powerful but for me seems to rob the music. The only problem with my statement is that the arms are all different so intact until I start interchanging them I won't get the real picture. The fact is they are all great if i could fit in a few more Turntables I would as they are all lovely objects to own.
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You have quite a collection of top turntables. You are also in a position to do some very interesting comparisons, thought that would mean using the same arm and cartridge on each of the turntables for best results. With cable matching and loading, and various other adjustments, that would be a lot of work.

I have heard the Kodo Beat and AF1 and of course own the 30/12. These are all excellent and results are quite dependent on which arm/cartridge one uses.
Congratulations and enjoy you collection. Also, welcome to the forum.
 
PeterA said:
I have a friend who owns a Technics SP10 mk 2A which he is selling because he just bought two Mk 3s. They can be found.
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Not really interested in the SP Mk3. I have the Exclusive P3 which is as good or arguably better.

I am more interested in current production DD tables to see how they compare to the Japanese beasts of yesteryear.

cheers
 
I also own a Technics sp10 mk3 I never mentioned it as while it is a lovely object to own I don't really consider it a worthy option. The reason is that I always find mine quite mechanical and grey sounding I have spent a great deal of time isolating it from the outside world but still never does it for me or course this is only my personal observation. Again I have very close friends who adore the technics and simply love it and so they should it all comes down to so many factors apart from sound.

I have a friend who owns a Rockport direct drive this is an interesting beast for sure for me more like the ultimate contender. Recently I noticed on audiogon there was a lovely Goldmund reference for for this is also a great vintage turntable superbly executed and lots of fun indeed.

As peter mentions the the arm cartridge factor is quite a serious consideration with all these wonderful turntables thats why I always end up owning a few turntables at one time. I personally favour air bearing tonearms in every way again you will get many who say the bass is weak and maybe in some ways it is, but with careful cartridge matching for me this can be addressed. I just find the sound of air bearing arms just less mechanical and ultimately more involving. The wonderful thing is that its not my opinion that matters and there is so much choice these days this is what makes it fun. If I had the space or the funds I would own 30 turntables yes it would drive me crazy but think of all the fun I would have not ever really knowing which one is is the real ultimate.
 
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