New B&O ICE Power 1200AS2 Module @ Nord: 600W into 8Ohms 1200W into 4Ohms

Greg, you said that I said that they are lying.....so I responded to that part since I never said that.

All vendors are not in a box. Some are totally trustworthy. I did not say that "all vendors cannot be trusted". Again, you are putting words in my mouth.

Aj,
The AS700 is an old design that was updated recently......but still very old technology. The IceEdge technology is the new IcePower technology. They have been working on it for 7 years. Please do some research. The 1200AS2 in the one and only module from Icepower that uses the IceEdge technology and was just released in Nov.

I cannot yet add an attachment but if you search you will find a very long article on Audioxpress about the IceEdge technology.
 
Okay Rick,

You're right, you didn't say they are lying exactly.

You said: I personally would not trust anyone who sells both to tell you what is really going on.
 
Surprisingly enough, a similar thread was started in Audiogon which was taken down and then it popped up here with the same words. Folks who doesn't own amp from any of the manufacturers are recommending them without any experience what so ever. Even before buying this amp, I had asked Colin about them (he had the sample 1200as2 at that time) and he said he preferred the nc500 but I wanted to hear it myself and there is no doubt the 1200as2 beats the nc500 in my system.
 
Both amps, the 1200AS2 and Nords NC500 (w/ SI 994) are transparent in nature and their sonic signature is also very similar - I have A/B them in two systems (mine and friend's system with Verity speakers) couple of times so far but in both the cases I prefer the 1200AS2.
 
Yes, it came out in fall of 2014 but is still based on the very old technology developed 10 years ago or more (updated somewhat). Only this new IceEdge technology is the really new stuff (7 years in development). I am not saying the 700 is not good. PS Audio is using it in their class D amps with zero feedback buffers ahead of it.....getting some nice reviews. One of the first amps I want to A/B with my 1200AS2 will be the mono block PS Audio amps.
 
Devg said:
Surprisingly enough, a similar thread was started in Audiogon which was taken down and then it popped up here with the same words. Folks who doesn't own amp from any of the manufacturers are recommending them without any experience what so ever. Even before buying this amp, I had asked Colin about them (he had the sample 1200as2 at that time) and he said he preferred the nc500 but I wanted to hear it myself and there is no doubt the 1200as2 beats the nc500 in my system.
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Dev, I started the thread on Agon and yes because of a bunch of trolls it was taken down. I did not start this thread if that's what you are implying.

I have listened to the 1200as2 for several weeks now in my very revealing system and I think it is very good as I have said. I have not heard the the NC500 which is why I pointed to the vendors who sell them and what they told me directly. I have heard the NC400 and it didn't sound anywhere near as good as the 1200as2 to me.

I don't recall anyone recommending the 1200as2 who hasn't heard it but maybe I missed that post.
 
Greg F said:
Dev, I started the thread on Agon and yes because of a bunch of trolls it was taken down. I did not start this thread if that's what you are implying.

I have listened to the 1200as2 for several weeks now in my very revealing system and I think it is very good as I have said. I have not heard the the NC500 which is why I pointed to the vendors who sell them and what they told me directly. I have heard the NC400 and it didn't sound anywhere near as good as the 1200as2 to me.

I don't recall anyone recommending the 1200as2 who hasn't heard it but maybe I missed that post.
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are you sure of it ? weren't you the one who recommended the amps from Nords and other manufacturers without hearing any of them ? how do you know they all sound the same ?
 
barrows said:
One thing I would point out is that comparisons of the 1200 AS2 to amps using NC-500 modules does not seem fair. Most of the NC-500 builds being used for comparison are dual mono amps with completely separate power supplies for each channel. In my experience full dual mono designs have an advantage in terms of sound staging and often dynamics as well.
I am looking forward to seeing what happens when we get a true dual mono amp with two 1200 AS1 boards (or mono blocks, whatever) as this should be what is compared to the dual mono Nord amps (etc) based on two SMPS 1200 and two NC-500 modules.
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I think that they cannot easily be compared because the new IceEdge based line is an "all in one" design with the PSU on the same board and input buffer integrated with the comparator on a single chip. This means three things: first, that the reletive placement of components is already optimised to reduce interferences; second, that the tolerances for the input buffer are much tighter than what you would expect of discrete buffers, even more so with discrete opamps; and third, the IceEdge must be treated as a single object with 26/29 Db of gain whereas the NC500 is just the final stage of a power amp with a 16Db gain (IIRC).

Hence they are two fundamentally different objects, but most importantly it is easy to cripple the performance of NC500 based amps by not properly matching or at least not properly sourcing high quality components for the input buffers and, even more importantly, by placing the boards in a suboptimal way inside the amp, causing electromagnetic interferences. The latter in particular may make a big difference since class D amps are known to be extremely sensitive to that. With the IceEdge stuff, you just put it in a case, finito.

Which one is better of course I do not know. Because of the scarce availability of 1200AS2 modules in Europe until recently, months ago I opted for the Apollon NC500 based moniblocks with SI opamps (these have correct placement of PSU wrt the other boards). I would be very curious to listen to 1200AS1 based monoblocks, until then I cannot judge – but I would not he surprised if some NC500 based ones rated better and other worse, just as a consequence of internal design, even if they use (different) input boards with the same opamps. In my limited DIY experience I have observed noticeable sound changes just by slightly reorientating transformers, twisting power supply cables, rerouting the latter differently, etc...

Roberto
 
Dropped in the Nord 1200 tonight in place of my Hattor NC500 based mono amps. Out of the gate the 1200 throws a spectacular soundstage, left, right, front, back and up. Very 3D and airy sounding with almost exaggerated detail. Sounding a little thin but it is early. A crazy contrast I thought about as I carried the Nord in the house under one arm. I remember needing a hand truck and some serious heave ho to get my Parasound A21 in the house. Maybe this is why it sounds a little thin :exciting:
 
So Marty,

That's two of you on this thread who are saying you like the 1200as2 better than the NC500 in your systems, that's good to know.

I wonder how much these conclusions are due to the op amps used in the NC500 based amps? Since that and the power supply are the only significant changes to be made IMO to alter the sound.

I assume you are running both amps balanced?
 
Greg I didn't say it was better but it is definitely different. Some attributes are better and some are not. I will need more time listening to each before I can say that I prefer one over the other. Stay tuned.

Yes I run a balanced signal from source to amps.

Greg F said:
So Marty,

That's two of you on this thread who are saying you like the 1200as2 better than the NC500 in your systems, that's good to know.

I wonder how much these conclusions are due to the op amps used in the NC500 based amps? Since that and the power supply are the only significant changes to be made IMO to alter the sound.

I assume you are running both amps balanced?
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Hey Marty,

Sorry for the misunderstanding, you did say it was sounding a little thin along with your praise of it. When I first started listening I didn't think it sounded thin really but I did hear some hissing and harshness on the top end. That didn't last very long though. The 1200 does throw a good soundstage in my room as well. I've heard better but always at the cost of something else.

Maybe when you have more time on the 1200as2 you could elaborate on the differences you hear between the two amps.
 
Hey Greg what amps were you using prior to the 1200AS?

Greg F said:
Hey Marty,

Sorry for the misunderstanding, you did say it was sounding a little thin along with your praise of it. When I first started listening I didn't think it sounded thin really but I did hear some hissing and harshness on the top end. That didn't last very long though. The 1200 does throw a good soundstage in my room as well. I've heard better but always at the cost of something else.

Maybe when you have more time on the 1200as2 you could elaborate on the differences you hear between the two amps.
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nc42acc said:
Hey Greg what amps were you using prior to the 1200AS?
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If you're asking which ones I've used that throw a better sound stage I can answer that.

A friend brought over some 845 based amps, I can't recall the brand right now. These threw the biggest soundstage I have ever heard and sounded magical but they were a just little dark for my liking and not as quiet. In fact the noise floor wasn't that great. My Butler 2250 throws a huge soundstage and sounds very similar to the 1200as2 in tone but it's not as quiet either. I would say it is at least as big, maybe a little bigger than the 1200as2. The other amp is also a friends amp, the Don Sach Kootanay 200 which also threw a huge soundstage in my room. That amp I would be hard pressed to find flaw with and it may be better than the 1200as2. But since it isn't mine I haven't had a lot of time with it. The worst amp for soundstage I have heard in my system is the Crown XLS1500. This amp is classic class D in that it has a somewhat harsh top end, it's thin sounding and the soundstage is very small. In fact it wins for the smallest soundstage I've heard in my room to date.
 
I'm in the middle of comparing Red Dragon m500 monos (Icepower but not the 1200asp; I'm not sure which module I know its fairly recent vintage...can anyone enlighten me?) against the Red Dragon S500 stereo amp utilizing Pascal modules against Bel Canto REf600s using the Ncore NC500 and soon to have a big Bryston in house as well. I love the midrange liquidity of the ice power amps and they have upper midrange and lower high-end "air" around the instruments not harsh in any way mind you that the REf600s can't match. I had high hopes for the Bel Canto amps but they just sound muffled througout the upper midrange and lower highs to me. I get the Bryston tomorrow and will have some additional comments there. There are numerous folks who are pushing me in the direction of high-biased class A amps like the Pass (whose opinions I respect) but I have no Pass dealer in Atlanta and without hearing the Pass on my speakers I'm not likely to purchase new. I could purchase the Pass used with the hope that if I don't like the amps I can sell them but even then there's not that much market for Pass on the used market even at half retail. They sit out there forever. But I'm leaning toward that route. Of course its hard to lug two 100 pound amplifiers around to customer's home so that they can "try" them. I'm surprised (but grateful) that the Bryston dealer is willing to do this. I've purchased other gear from that dealer however and he knows me. I'm interested in hearing how the NEW cubed Bryston series sounds on my speakers because the last iteration sounded screechy and harsh to me on the highs. So MORE TO COME. Any comments are welcome.
 
Is there a big difference between the Red Dragon m500 monos and the Red Dragon S500 stereo amp ?
 
Elberoth said:
Is there a big difference between the Red Dragon m500 monos and the Red Dragon S500 stereo amp ?
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He mentioned the m500 used ICEPower (not 1200 AS2) and the s500 used Pascal, so I would expect a significant difference.

I am surprised pwhinson found the bel canto REF 600 (Ncore) to have less high frequency air than the ICEpower and Pascal based amps, I hear that the opposite way with Ncore having a distinct advantage in the high frequencies over other class D approaches I have heard (but i have not heard bel canto's implementation of Ncore). Ncore takes a lot of break in, I would make sure the bel cantos have plenty of time on them. And most class D amps I have dealt with need 24 hours of warmup to sound their best, I leave mine powered up at all times because of this. Make sure the amps are warmed up for testing.
 
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