Intel NUC music server incoming

[Puma Cat]

Great idea, but good you ask this, because you made the same beginners mistake I did. The problem is the choice of the Intel Core i9-9900K. The problem is that the TDP for your core is far too high, resulting in an overheated pc. Intel has 3 core classes, the normal, the K and the T. For fanless builds a TDP below 45W is required, that means normally Intels T build processors. Secondly: an i7 will do for audio and as long you don't convert to DSD i5 and maybe i3 is also possible. But most important is that the TDP is below 45W and that it fits on the motherboard.

About the case: I did use a Streacom case for the mini ITX board, this one is perfect and there are more audio pc builders who use it FC8 – Fanless Mini-ITX Case – Streacom. With my build: with an Asus 560i gaming I had a second problem: there was a large heatsink on it which will block the assembly of the Streacom heatpipe, which could be solved with an extra Streacom HT4. That having said: I don't advise a gaming motherboard like the Asus at all. Next time I will build one I go for the brand SuperMicro. It is not the cheapest one, but perfect for audio.

Just to be clear, I didn't use this board, this was used in Nenon's DIY build. It was built in a Streacom case, as you recommend.
Referenced here: Building a DIY Music Server - Music Servers - Audiophile Style

Sorry, but I don't know what the acronym "TDP" stands for.

Thank you, though, for the information you've provided, it's useful. This entire domain of "DIY" music servers is all new to me, so any info is helpful. Cheers.

 

[wklie]

Higher TDP means it generates higher heat, which generally makes a stable fanless build difficult and/or expensive. Even with a fan the choice of fan needs to take that into consideration if one wishes to lower the fan noise at home (rather than a server room / data center in a commercial environment).

TDP is not the same as worst case maximum power consumption, the latter of which can be even higher. So do not simply rely on the TDP to select the power you need for a LPS.

 

[Bones13]

With the upcoming demise of the Intel Nuc, I decided to upgrade my NUC6 i7. I use my NUC only for network music file service, only connected to the LAN.
Currently the Nuc6 has been performing Roon ROCK duty.

I ordered a Nuc12 i5 16g memory, 256g SSD with the corresponding Akasa Turing WS case. I have a 2t 2.5 SSD drive I plan to use for Data.
This will differ from the Nuc6, in that an internal drive can be installed for the music files, instead of needing a USB drive separately.

Undecided if I will run it with Windows11 - Roon to start, considering trying out Audirvana.

Vs. Installing Roon Rock, and treating it just like an appliance. I probably will try all of the above.

Anyone have the "best" OS for music file server duty? (no need to be special USB/SPDIF to DAC)

 

[wklie]

I ordered a Nuc12 i5 16g memory, 256g SSD with the corresponding Akasa Turing WS case. I have a 2t 2.5 SSD drive I plan to use for Data.
...
Anyone have the "best" OS for music file server duty? (no need to be special USB/SPDIF to DAC)

That looks like an ideal ROCK setup.

I've recently posted this to another forum in response for a ROCK build question:

My suggestion for ROCK PC:

- Get a NUC model with i5 or i7 - search the exact model in Roon forum for people's success reports

- If not using HDMI audio output, you may use NUC12 or slightly older ones. NUC13 is not in the certified list but some people reported success.

- If using HDMI audio output, no newer than NUC11 should be used.

- 16GB RAM

- Get the smallest capacity version of Samsung 970 (not 980 not 990) as boot drive

- Make sure the NUC has space for a 2.5" music drive

- If fanless chassis is desired, check for chassis compatibility against specific NUC boards / models

As for what is the "best" for RAAT network streaming, I had a few users who reported improvements going from Windows 10 to ROCK, but I'm sure this is not going to be universal for everybody with different setup and network environment. And note that the EUR28k Roon server runs Custom Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2019 OS.

When/if you have tried different OS, please report.

 

[Puma Cat]

That looks like an ideal ROCK setup.

I've recently posted this to another forum in response for a ROCK build question:


As for what is the "best" for RAAT network streaming, I had a few users who reported improvements going from Windows 10 to ROCK, but I'm sure this is not going to be universal for everybody with different setup and network environment. And note that the EUR28k Roon server runs Custom Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2019 OS.

When/if you have tried different OS, please report.

Many thanks, Peter. You not only provide outstanding and responsive support to Lumin owners, but IMHO, your, Almar's and Adam's domain knowledge and experience for this specific domain of "high-end music servers" are a real asset to this community.

 

[wklie]

With the upcoming demise of the Intel Nuc

www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/newsroom/news/intel-nuc-systems-agreement.html

Intel announced it has agreed to a term sheet with ASUS, a global technology solution provider, for an agreement to manufacture, sell and support the Next Unit of Compute (NUC) 10th to 13th generations systems product line, and to develop future NUC systems designs.

 

[NekoAudio]

SimplyNUC also says they're planning to continue with the "NUC" form-factor.

Simply NUC, Inc, a leading mini PC solutions company, announced they are prepared to continue ramping their investment in mini PCs and the NUC product line...

 

[Bones13]

Looks like ASUS will be building the upcoming NUC boards/systems, so they are not going away.

Amazon seems to have misplaced my NUC, and I may have to re-order one. Unless it turns up by the weekend.

Amazon Prime Delivery is not even close to what it was pre-covid.

 

[Bones13]

Completed the work on my new Roon Rock NUC13 Music Server.

One hiccup with a “lost” NUC12 unit. Prime delivery is not what it once was.

Akasa Turing case + NUC13 board + 512 m.2 + 2T SSD + ROON ROCK
I’m sticking with the large brick PSU that came with it, and put it in the server closet. Final filter is the etherRegen at the streamer.

Longest part of the procedure was copying the almost 1T of music files to the storage drive.

A touch of BIOS manipulation, really an easy build, and solid end result. Lots of YouTube instruction to be had. And of course the ROON ROCK installation page. The Akasa box had all the parts needed, even thermal paste.

 

[Elberoth]

One problem I see with building those around 13-gen NUC is the max TDP of the CPU.

Intel 13-gen CPUs became very powerful at a cost: high power usage and high heat dissapation.

NUC 13-gen i3 max TDP is 55W and NUC i7 is a ... 64W. Now compare that to only 15W and 28W for the original Roon Nucleus/Nucleus+.

This has consequences on both the increased heat dissapation (may easily overwhelm the passive case) and PSU requirements. This is the reason why those NUCs are shipped with a brick that is rated over 6A @ 19V (120W). That is 10A @ 12V! TEN amps!

There is no ultra low nosie (audiophile) PSU that I know of that is able to support that much current. A PSU with 6A @ 19V (120W) output capability would be both big and expensive.

So you will most likely have to stick to the stock PSU, which is a limiting factor, and will not be able to upgrade. You have gained sth you don't really need (all the extra computing power which will go to waste) and lost sth which was actually valuable.

IMO the older boards Roon keeps using for the Nucleus (at least for the i7) really have the best combination of CPU computing speed / current draw / heat dissipation for this application.

 

[Alkyogre]

One problem I see with building those around 13-gen NUC is the max TDP of the CPU.

Intel 13-gen CPUs became very powerful at a cost: high power usage and high heat dissapation.

NUC 13-gen i3 max TDP is 55W and NUC i7 is a ... 64W. Now compare that to only 15W and 28W for the original Roon Nucleus/Nucleus+.

This has consequences on both the increased heat dissapation (may easily overwhelm the passive case) and PSU requirements. This is the reason why those NUCs are shipped with a brick that is rated over 6A @ 19V (120W). That is 10A @ 12V! TEN amps!

There is no ultra low nosie (audiophile) PSU that I know of that is able to support that much current. A PSU with 6A @ 19V (120W) output capability would be both big and expensive.

So you will most likely have to stick to the stock PSU, which is a limiting factor, and will not be able to upgrade. You have gained sth you don't really need (all the extra computing power which will go to waste) and lost sth which was actually valuable.

IMO the older boards Roon keeps using for the Nucleus (at least for the i7) really have the best combination of CPU computing speed / current draw / heat dissipation for this application.

According to intel TDP is 35W for the 13i7/13i5 and 20W for the 13i3, which is still very good for a fanless nuc and not 55W and 64W, which is too high.

Access Denied

 

[Puma Cat]

One problem I see with building those around 13-gen NUC is the max TDP of the CPU.

Intel 13-gen CPUs became very powerful at a cost: high power usage and high heat dissapation.

NUC 13-gen i3 max TDP is 55W and NUC i7 is a ... 64W. Now compare that to only 15W and 28W for the original Roon Nucleus/Nucleus+.

This has consequences on both the increased heat dissapation (may easily overwhelm the passive case) and PSU requirements. This is the reason why those NUCs are shipped with a brick that is rated over 6A @ 19V (120W). That is 10A @ 12V! TEN amps!

There is no ultra low nosie (audiophile) PSU that I know of that is able to support that much current. A PSU with 6A @ 19V (120W) output capability would be both big and expensive.

So you will most likely have to stick to the stock PSU, which is a limiting factor, and will not be able to upgrade. You have gained sth you don't really need (all the extra computing power which will go to waste) and lost sth which was actually valuable.

IMO the older boards Roon keeps using for the Nucleus (at least for the i7) really have the best combination of CPU computing speed / current draw / heat dissipation for this application.

What does the acronym "TDP" mean?

 

[Bones13]

“Thermal Design Power”

The Akasa case I used works fine with a 45 TDP system. My i5, at 35 TDP, is well within specs.

While NUCs directly connected to a DAC via USB probably are better being low power, lower noise units, my Ethernet server unit will do fine with some power to do some resampling with. Perhaps the Nucleus+ works fine in either role, mine is just for remote server duties.

 

[Elberoth]

What does the acronym "TDP" mean?

Thermal Design Power (TDP) represents the average power, in watts, the processor dissipates when operating.

 

[Elberoth]

According to intel TDP is 35W for the 13i7/13i5 and 20W for the 13i3, which is still very good for a fanless nuc and not 55W and 64W, which is too high.

Access Denied

You are confusing TDP with max TDP (which was what I was referring to). Max TDP for for 13i3 is 55W and 64W for the i7 variant.

Akasa referes to the max TDP on their website. Maximum TDP support for your case - as stipulated on the Akasa website - is 28W.

Will it overheat running Roon? I don't think it will, as it Roon is just not able to load that procesor that much, even when running DSD512 upsampling and DSP. So you should be fine in terms of not exceeding the thermal capacity of the Akasa case.

However, max TDP has other significant consequences. Higher TDP = higher current draw.

The 13-gen CPUs can draw crazy amount of current. Intel designed 13-gen i3 to be able to go into a turbo mode up to 4.4GHz (turbo mode allows a CPU to run much faster for a limited period of time - usually around 30s, to avoid overheating) and when that happens, on TEN cores, it can draw over 100W (which is the reason it comes with a massive 120W PSU). Now compare that to the Nucleus (i3) which maxes out at just 15W or the Nucleus+ (i7), which maxes out at 50W.

15W vs 100W represents is a 7-fold current draw increase between those two i3 generations.

In Polish we have an idiom/saying "To shoot out of cannon into a fly" (literal translation), which is used to convey an idea of applying too drastic measures to small problems. This is exactly the case of using NUC 13-gen to run Roon.

You gain nothing in terms of performance - it basicly has 5x more computing power that you would ever need running Roon - at an expense of increased heat dissapation and huge power requirements.

It is like putting Honda i4 engine on a lawn mover, where a singe cylinder 2-stroke would do. Creates much more problems that it solves.

 

[Puma Cat]

Thermal Design Power (TDP) represents the average power, in watts, the processor dissipates when operating.

Thanks, Adam.

 

[Elberoth]

Completed the work on my new Roon Rock NUC13 Music Server.
I’m sticking with the large brick PSU that came with it, and put it in the server closet. Final filter is the etherRegen at the streamer.

I'm sorry - I have just re-read the thread and realised, that you are storing your NUC13 in another room, so probably have your NUC connected via Etherent and you gonna use the stock NUC PSU (as upgrading the PSU when the unit is in another room, connected via Ethernet, doesn't make much sense anyway).

This is one of the rare cases, where you should be perfectly fine with NUC13.

 

[Bones13]

Yep, only power, and Ethernet plugged into the NUC. Since of course, I cleaned, dusted, and rerouted cables in the closet, so playing with re-sampling will be another day. The Bricasti sounds best, to me, using the DSD decoder. (It has separate boards for decoding files, one being their original Sigma Delta, and the other being DSD specific)

I agree that a computer, of any sort, that has its USB connected to a DAC, or streamer, would greatly benefit from a number of factors, as you mentioned. Hence the huge difference when I switched from a simple USB cord coming from my PC, years ago, to the earliest microRendu. Transformative!

It’s been a long road from configuring ASIO drivers on a PC with a sound card via SPDIF to my early DACs to todays built in Ethernet streamers.

 

[Elberoth]

For all those that want build a Nuc in a fanless case and still have the option to upgrade the PSU in the future, I strongly recommend sticking with 8 or 10th gen i3 boards or 7, 8 or 10th gen i7 boards.

Using newer boards is counterproductive.

 

[Puma Cat]

I agree that a computer, of any sort, that has its USB connected to a DAC, or streamer, would greatly benefit from a number of factors, as you mentioned. Hence the huge difference when I switched from a simple USB cord coming from my PC, years ago, to the earliest microRendu. Transformative!

I remember when I did that with my mR back in 2016, and I was fairly shocked at the improvement that provided. It took me a while to understand, from an engineering/networking/audio quality perspective, why the sound quality was so much better.