DAC Comparison not going well …

gadawg

gadawg

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So … I’ve been comparing some new DAC’s lately and it’s just not going very well. I have an Esoteric D-02X that I have used mostly with a P-02X transport and Aurender W20SE which sounds really good. So far I’ve compared it to a DCS Rossini Apex, MSB Reference, and the new Esoteric N-01XD. Even had a G-05 clock in the system. Don’t get me wrong … there are pluses and minuses for each of the dacs and the Esoteric Clock really elevates the performance of my D-02X for not a lot of money. So what’s been going so wrong? Well .. after listening to the digital front ends … I sit down, relax and play a tape on my Sonorus R2R and ALL of the DACs sound totally broken! Like, don’t even bother! I guess if everything I liked were available on tape I probably wouldn’t. I’m struggling to find a digital front end that I can sit back, relax and enjoy unless I don’t play my R2R for a while.

I’ve not listened to the new D1XSE’s yet so they are a consideration but I’ve just not found a DAC that has the overall clarity and openness of tape. Maybe I won’t. Not sure how this journey will end but I’m in no hurry so for now I’m going to sit back and wait on the next bunch of tapes to come in and listen to those and enjoy the music!

Cheers

George
 
Hi George,

Can you share your observations thus far? What’s good and not so good with each DAC?

Hang in there. You’ll know which one to get when you are able to just sit back, relax and enjoy the music.
 
With the number of fine DAC's you have auditioned yet found all lacking it is unlikely you will ever find one that meets your standards. If your standards are tape and all other medium sound broken, the catalog of music available to you is far less than 1%. Even if it sounds like the are playing right in my room that is far to limiting for me.
 
George, if you find a DAC that beats your R2R, let me know. I’ll buy it tomorrow.

I will say this, the Select II with Digital Direct and Taiko running XDMS gets me the closest to my Studer’s.

I think the key George, is to enjoy digital for what it is: the world’s biggest buffet. It might not be 3 star Michelin dining, but there is a massive variety of music to enjoy, so it’s just that, enjoy it for what it is.

I’m no different. My Studer’s smokes any digital. Then I go to my customers in Ohio and hear his 1/2 inch tapes and it’s like another step above yet again. You’re sitting there listening to “Wish you were here” or “The Doors” or whatever and you’re just in awe.

Why is this? I’ve gone over this numerous times and until people see it in action (at the studios) like I have, it won’t hit home. The studios are using junk A2D converters and massive amounts of compression. When you have a direct tape to tape transfer, it’s like going from standard definition TV on an old set from the 80’s to a 200 inch 8K display today. What some of these studios do is akin to the guy recording the latest 200 inch 8K display at CES on his iPhone 4 and then playing it back on his Betamax on his 14 inch Hitachi from the 80’s.

Of course, you have the naysayers, “but the tapes are like $400…”. Yeah, you won’t be Willy Nilly buying every tape that comes out. But you will have a selection that is unrivaled by any other source to date.

But as you know, tape is a labor of love. I’ve talked many customers out of it, you know the ones who say “vinyl is such a hassle!” For those folks, I tell them tape is another level entirely of care and feeding, stick to digital.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Ritmo said:
Hi George,

Can you share your observations thus far? What’s good and not so good with each DAC?

Hang in there. You’ll know which one to get when you are able to just sit back, relax and enjoy the music.
Click to expand...

So each of the DACs has pro’s and con’s for sure but I think the common thing that I’m missing out of all of them compared to the R2R is the stunning level of clarity without any brightness the tape provides and a stunning soundstage with the tape (left to right and front to back) that the DAC’s just can’t match. The tape also provides for much better layering of the soundstage .. its like it becomes totally obvious to anyone that listens and its not as subtle as it is with the digital front ends. the best way I can sum it up as the digital definitely sounds like a copy of a recording and the tapes sound more like an actual performance. I agree with Mike’s statements that the digital isn’t going to match the tape for a variety of reasons and I’m going to have to accept that … just will try and find one that checks the most boxes for me. I find it quite interesting that until last year I had never even heard a good R2R machine in a high end system then heard one of these with Dire Straits On Every Street and was like … I’ve never heard anything sound that good.

I have quite a few tapes on order right now and can’t wait to get them. Was playing The Wall and Dark Side of the Moon last night on R2R and I was completely unaware of the time until I looked up and realized it was 4am. :-) I guess most of all that’s really what I’m looking for … to get totally absorbed into the music! Can’t wait to get my new Pre and Amps in likely in April/May time frame. Should take it to another level then I’ll get more serious about demo’ing DACs again.

Cheers everyone and thanks for the support!

George
 
Mike said:
I’m no different. My Studer’s smokes any digital. Then I go to my customers in Ohio and hear his 1/2 inch tapes and it’s like another step above yet again. You’re sitting there listening to “Wish you were here” or “The Doors” or whatever and you’re just in awe.

Why is this? I’ve gone over this numerous times and until people see it in action (at the studios) like I have, it won’t hit home. The studios are using junk A2D converters and massive amounts of compression. When you have a direct tape to tape transfer, it’s like going from standard definition TV on an old set from the 80’s to a 200 inch 8K display today. What some of these studios do is akin to the guy recording the latest 200 inch 8K display at CES on his iPhone 4 and then playing it back on his Betamax on his 14 inch Hitachi from the 80’s.

Of course, you have the naysayers, “but the tapes are like $400…”. Yeah, you won’t be Willy Nilly buying every tape that comes out. But you will have a selection that is unrivaled by any other source to date.

But as you know, tape is a labor of love. I’ve talked many customers out of it, you know the ones who say “vinyl is such a hassle!” For those folks, I tell them tape is another level entirely of care and feeding, stick to digital.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...

Mike, you are 100% correct. Unless you're dealing with a studio that strives for absolute sound quality, you're never going to get the quality of good tape with mainstream digital recordings. However, Paul McGowan of PS Audio and Octave Records claims that their DSD recordings are just as good as tape, but they also go those extra miles to have the best mics, cables and gear in their studio.

I for one do not mind the "hassle" of playing vinyl and tape. It's not really a hassle to me. But as far as tape is concerned, if the prices of reels were like $100 a pop, I would certainly be buying some here and there and being able to use my old Pioneer RT-1020L more often. I hate that it sits 99% of the time not being used at all. And if that were the case, then I'd be inclined to put the Rt-1020L under the knife and do some mods/upgrades to it to improve its performance even more.
 
This whole thread is how I feel, it's crazy !
Although I'm using analog and not R2R for that comparison, it is just exactly the same, and since I have the Clarisys audio speakers it is a lot more evidence!
The gaps are huge! I just told Floriannn a few weeks ago I'm really sad. I didn't have that "problem" so clearly emphasized.I am surely very invested in my analog rig, but my Digital is not sloth either. i feel exactly as you guys described, the Digital is like a mockup for the real music i am putting through LPs. so, I'm in a digital frenzy to get it up enough for me to enjoy it again as I used to.
I have some really amazing orders on the way, and I am very hopeful to get the same sansasual from my digital as from my analog... at least to have some very good sound to sit back and enjoy for the unlimited pool of music that we can listen to from it.
A.
 
Serious question, how does R2R transfer work? It would seem that if it was actual transfers they would be limited by the original tape degrading. And, if it was the original tape then nothing left to make a true transfer from.

An aquaintance does R2R and he told me things that has to be done that I wasn't aware of. I can't even fold paper straight, no way would I attempt playing tape, LOL I can't remember exactly the issue it seems he was telling me sometimes the tape has to be heated up. And, his tape don't even arrive already on the reells. Too much for me. Kudos to those who do it though and I'd love to have a listen. Years ago I did hear a "master tape" on a MBL system and it was the best I heard that album sound.
 
MichaelsMinute said:
Sounds like you've tried some nice DAC's.

Have you thought of trying a different streamer?
Click to expand...

So I have an Aurender W20SE and have compared that to the built in streaming in the Rossini Apex. The built in streaming in the Rossini Apex is better than the W20SE in my setup. That said I mostly play silver discs so that is how I’ve done most of my comparisons.

Also … so far the Rossini Apex is sounding better to me than my D-02X which is several years old at this point. Probably going to listen to a Vivaldi Apex setup next.

George
 
gadawg said:
So I have an Aurender W20SE and have compared that to the built in streaming in the Rossini Apex. The built in streaming in the Rossini Apex is better than the W20SE in my setup. That said I mostly play silver discs so that is how I’ve done most of my comparisons.

Also … so far the Rossini Apex is sounding better to me than my D-02X which is several years old at this point. Probably going to listen to a Vivaldi Apex setup next.

George
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i had the N10 a few years ago, actually Mike suggest it to me back than :)
it was fantastic! till i got my CH PRECISION C1.1 with the HD card so i sold it and im using the internal HD card with Roon Nucleus server.
(if i must be honest, i think the N10 was better... )
but i get it that in different systems something will work better than others and visa versa.

i am on the verge on getting my digital WAY (way!) up.... although i am very happy with the ch C1.2 i can imagine that there are a better road and a much better sounding to compete with our Analog.
will report when everything will be here and tested... i am very excited.
 
Was the 01sd broken in when you listened? I bought my N05xd new and it took a good while to break in and SQ changed quite a bit over that time.

You have the R2R as a reference so I'm following. However, to my taste dCS is the least analog sounding. I wish I had more time to listen to MSB, I did like their sound but with my limited time not convinced of how fast transients would be. After break in I am very happy with the N05xd in my system. Whenever I hear dCS they seem to lean analytical and rigid. They are popular though so we all have our taste. And, system synergy.
 
brodricj said:
It's a long stretch between that and everything else. Your reasoning is difficult to follow.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean? Yes the D1X SE is more expensive than most of the others I have listened to so far except for the MSB which is about the same price. When I bought my D-02X it was super close in performance to the then current D-1’s but I don’t know how much better the D1X’s are to be sure. I plan on listening to Vivaldi as well. Hopefully that helps clear things up?

George
 
Mr Peabody said:
Was the 01sd broken in when you listened? I bought my N05xd new and it took a good while to break in and SQ changed quite a bit over that time.

You have the R2R as a reference so I'm following. However, to my taste dCS is the least analog sounding. I wish I had more time to listen to MSB, I did like their sound but with my limited time not convinced of how fast transients would be. After break in I am very happy with the N05xd in my system. Whenever I hear dCS they seem to lean analytical and rigid. They are popular though so we all have our taste. And, system synergy.
Click to expand...

I think all of the DACs I’ve tried so far are pretty well broken in at this point. I really like some aspects of the new Esoteric but so far they don’t seem to have quite the sound stage size and depth that I’m used to but again the D-02X really excelled there to be sure. I’m thinking maybe the D-1X SE might be more up my ally.

With regards to the DCS Rossini Apex …. not analytical to me at all but I’m running it in an all tube setup so I’m sure that system synergy has something to do with it. Will be interested to compare the Vivaldi stack to D1X SE. That should be quite telling! The MSB sound in my system just doesn’t work. Seems to trade off some of the detail and pop for a smoother overall sound. Again in a different system I could imagine that being preferred .. just not in my setup.

George
 
brodricj said:
I would not buy D1X-SE. I would buy N01XD-SE + G-05 and devote the money saved for other things.
Click to expand...

I've auditioned the N01XD and was not overly impressed. Not sure how much better the SE will be ... Still preferred my D-02X to it for sure ... if I was going down that road I'd just keep my D-02X and add the G05 to it which I've tried and like the best of the Esoteric gear so far and that was close to the Rossini Apex but I still preferred the Apex. If the D1X SE sound stage isn't much larger than what I've already heard then for me I'll likely end up with a Vivaldi stack as I'm guessing it will greatly surpass the Rossini Apex.

I have in fact purchased the Rossini Apex and long term will use it with my headphone amp Feliks Audio Euphoria Evo but so far it sounds the best to me in my system so until I find something else I like better there it will stay. Again .. won't be doing much more auditioning until my VAC Statement system comes in sometime in April I'm guessing. What's next on the list right now is Vivaldi Apex, D1X SE, Wadax Atlantis DAC (not reference). All of those have matching transports so I can still play my SACD's which is important to me. Take care!

George
 
gadawg said:
I've auditioned the N01XD and was not overly impressed. Not sure how much better the SE will be ...
Click to expand...

I owned N-01 + G-02X and I thought it was excellent. I'm very impressed by current offerings of integrated amplifiers as an alternative to multi-box stacks. The Bladelius ASK is excellent. I'm sure Esoteric F-01 would also be excellent, although I don't think optional DAC is available for that. Any Esoteric spinner + F-01 I expect would be an excellent choice. I've got a hunch a new Grandioso level integrated will be announced this year.
 
gadawg said:
I've auditioned the N01XD and was not overly impressed. Not sure how much better the SE will be ... Still preferred my D-02X to it for sure ... if I was going down that road I'd just keep my D-02X and add the G05 to it which I've tried and like the best of the Esoteric gear so far and that was close to the Rossini Apex but I still preferred the Apex. If the D1X SE sound stage isn't much larger than what I've already heard then for me I'll likely end up with a Vivaldi stack as I'm guessing it will greatly surpass the Rossini Apex.

I have in fact purchased the Rossini Apex and long term will use it with my headphone amp Feliks Audio Euphoria Evo but so far it sounds the best to me in my system so until I find something else I like better there it will stay. Again .. won't be doing much more auditioning until my VAC Statement system comes in sometime in April I'm guessing. What's next on the list right now is Vivaldi Apex, D1X SE, Wadax Atlantis DAC (not reference). All of those have matching transports so I can still play my SACD's which is important to me. Take care!

George
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You've lived with your D-02X and the Rossini for a while and no doubt gotten them well integrated into your system and your musical ear. I have a K-01XD (coming from a K-03X), and it's taken me a while to understand this unit and get it anchored into my system for my music. The DAC section of this unit is very similar to the N-01XD, and IMO it's new discrete component DAC technology is a big step up from the chip-based DACs in Esoteric's prior units. That said, the new filter and up conversion settings in the XD units can have a significant impact on what you hear - tone, detail, sound stage, etc. So I'm wondering if the N-01XD you heard really got a fair shake relative to DACs you've lived with. And if heard the same way with the same settings, like you, I'm wondering if a D1X or D1X SE's house sound will differ substantially.
 
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