Standalone DACs under $10k?

In my personal case, I'm running from my Aurender (or disc spinner, etc) directly to the DAC. No PC in the loop to upsample to DSD512, nor do I have plans to add one.
 
2FlyingYorkies said:
In my personal case, I'm running from my Aurender (or disc spinner, etc) directly to the DAC. No PC in the loop to upsample to DSD512, nor do I have plans to add one.
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Each person has to use what is best for them. Of course DSD can be enjoyed without up-sampling, and of course a PC is not always required tp perform up-sampling). I have over 400 DSD albums and their sound quality is amazing. But as I said, to each their own :). I hope you find the perfect DAC for your use. There have been some very good ones mentioned in this thread (including T+A).
 
Randy Myers said:
Of course DSD can be enjoyed without up-sampling, and of course a PC is not always required tp perform up-sampling).
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Sure, I have some DSD albums too, and the PS Audio converts everything to DSD before doin the D/A conversion, regardless of original format. But how would a system like mine go from a Tidal streaming PCM/FLAC format to DSD512 without a PC in the mix? Genuinely curious, as I thought a high horsepower computer was needed for such things. I looked at the T+A back when I got the PS, and the extra hardware to extract max performance was a factor at the time.
 
rbbert said:
Why do you say this??
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T+A is known as a DSD specialist to many. They have completely different circuits and signal paths for PCM and DSD files. They developed their own DSD circuits and in every review I have read for any T+A DAC they mention how their DSD process is top notch, among the best!

I was resistant and felt DSD was not a big deal. Norman, believe it or not, was the one who finally convinced me to try DSD (thanks Norman). After I did there was no turning back; in my view DSD sounds much better. A friend of mine is one of the first musicians to start recording in DSD. In his view DSD is the most analog sounding of the digital formats. I agree.

This was all long before I discovered HQ Player. HQ Player is not simply an up-sampling logarithm, although it does this better than any system out there. It is one of the finest sounding playback engines in my view and works very well in conjunction with Roon. Roon is my control environment and meta data provider and then it hands it off to HQ Player as the playback engine.

Anyway, probably more info than you were asking for...
 
2FlyingYorkies said:
Sure, I have some DSD albums too, and the PS Audio converts everything to DSD before doin the D/A conversion, regardless of original format. But how would a system like mine go from a Tidal streaming PCM/FLAC format to DSD512 without a PC in the mix? Genuinely curious, as I thought a high horsepower computer was needed for such things. I looked at the T+A back when I got the PS, and the extra hardware to extract max performance was a factor at the time.
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It depends on your system of course, but Roon does up-sampling, and there are Linux systems that can now also (although I have no knowledge of this). Not sure on Aurender, but they might be able to do up-sampling as well now... not sure.

I am familiar with PS Audio and was considering one of those prior when I choose T+A. I actually had a nice long talk with Ted Smith at a show once about how PS Audio internally up-samples everything and then down samples it to DSD128 to be converted to analog. By the way, the highest level level file that PS Audio convert is DSD128. This is strange to me since it internally up-samples to many times higher then that and then down-samples the file for final playback to DSD128. So unless you change your DAC any up-sampling you do should be capped at DSD128 because the PS Audio does not accept anything higher (unless they recently changed this).

The only system that truly requires a high horsepower computer is HQ Player. Roon is much more friendly with mid-powered gear.

Anyway, can't give you any exact recommendations because I do not use products like the Aurender; instead I use a custom built dedicated PC as my server. But I would tell you that there may possible be ways to accomplish this with your system and I would encourage you to search because it is certainly worth the effort.

I also always look for the highest DSD sample I can find when purchasing DSD albums (up to DSD512). I figure the better in the better out and I do believe that a lower level DSD files up-sampled do sound better then a PCM file up-sampled, but all of the above sound better in DSD with my system. Every file I listen to on my system is sent to the DAC in DSD512.

The portable player does not up-sample but it can play up to DSD256!
 
Randy Myers said:
T+A is known as a DSD specialist to many. They have completely different circuits and signal paths for PCM and DSD files. They developed their own DSD circuits and in every review I have read for any T+A DAC they mention how their DSD process is top notch, among the best!

I was resistant and felt DSD was not a big deal. Norman, believe it or not, was the one who finally convinced me to try DSD (thanks Norman). After I did there was no turning back; in my view DSD sounds much better. A friend of mine is one of the first musicians to start recording in DSD. In his view DSD is the most analog sounding of the digital formats. I agree.

This was all long before I discovered HQ Player. HQ Player is not simply an up-sampling logarithm, although it does this better than any system out there. It is one of the finest sounding playback engines in my view and works very well in conjunction with Roon. Roon is my control environment and meta data provider and then it hands it off to HQ Player as the playback engine.

Anyway, probably more info than you were asking for...
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No, actually less, you didn’t really answer my question. DSD is great, but I still don’t understand what that has to do with T & A.
 
Your question was "Why do you say this??". I pretty much answered the question in the first line. T+A is considered a DSD specialist or experts if you will. They have a dedicated signal path for DSD files that is separate from the signal path and processors used for PCM files, and the DSD files are converted using their proprietary DSD 1-bit dedicated processors. They are considered one of the highest level DACs for DSD files. If you don't understand that then I am afraid I cannot explain my statement any further.

By the way it is T+A, not T&A. An extremely highly rated German manufacture of some of the finest audio components in the world since 1978.

For PCM files eight 32-bit converters from Burr-Brown in a double symmetrical circuit are used. This circuit provides perfect compensation for non-linearities, and the residual background noise – which is excellent in any case with the 32-bit converters.

For DSD T+A's True One Bit DSD Converter is utilized. T+A is one of the only manufactures who separates PCM and DSD files which are then processed using completely separate signal paths, actual different sections within the T+A circuitry. In other words separate dedicated DACs are used for PCM and DSD, design specifically for each type of data.

"For the purpose of handling DSD data which can be supplied via the PC-USB input we have developed a unique, dedicated converter: the T+A True One Bit DSD Converter. This is of fully analogue construction and constitutes a genuine one-bit converter, since – unlike other manufacturers – we did not want to use the DSD mode of a PCM converter. This development ensures that DSD data are processed in a genuine one-bit stream process, uncoloured and without detrimental additional conversion, as in our PDP 3000 HV High-End DSD / PCM player. Fifteen long years ago we developed a means of galvanically separating the converter from the analogue section for use in our high-end players:"
 
rbbert said:
Whatever. Sounds like an infomercial to me.
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As you wish. You asked, I answered. I tried to answer in a shorter more basic form without going into the "infomercial" type language and you said I did not answer your question, therefore.....

T+A's reputation speaks for itself. Not saying it is the only great DAC in this range and certainly not saying it is for everyone. Other good choices have been listed here. For me, as a person who appreciates DSD, and later as a user of HQ Player, and on a reasonable budget, it is the ideal DAC.
 
"T+A's reputation speaks for itself."

That's where we differ, I guess. dcs, MSB, Chord, Esoteric, Lampizator, Aqua, TotalDAC, etc. have pretty well established good reputations for sound quality. T + A gets praise, certainly, but not compared to those or some others. Just what I have noticed after a few decades of hanging around...
 
i have a t+a dac8 dsd and would enthusiastically recommend the OP include it in his search / investigation. at an msrp of ~$4k, its price / performance ratio is quite high and i feel one would have to venture decently north of $10k to materially better it.

build quality, fit-and-finish, materials, etc. are off the charts -- best manufactured piece of any type gear i own.

t+a technical service / assistance is second-to-none

the DSD converter in the t+a is exceedingly good and i up-sample everything to dsd512 with roon and then send to the dac8 dsd via USB. that being said, i used the PCM converter for the first year i owned the DAC and have no complaints at all about it.

in my mind at least, the reputation of t+a is beyond reproach - YMMV
 
Exactly. T+A's reputation is indeed excellent. This does not mean the others mentioned in this thread are not equally respected. Of course they are, however to gain the same level of performance you are looking at 2 to 3 times the price, at least.

In Europe, and especially in Germany T+A is considered at the top of the pinnacle. Fairly recently there have finally been reviews in major publications such as The Absolute Sound and Stereophile and every single one have been rave reviews, some exceedingly so. So yes, T+A's reputation does indeed speak for itself.
 
Problem with this question, as are all these type questions, is the only reference any responder has is the equipment they have put in their rack. A retail store has a bias towards equipment they carry. Its really shooting in the dark.

Makes me wonder how many DAC say T+A, Shiit, Esoteric, MSB, etc actually own and compare what they are producing to the competition. You know, what are they making a baseline too.
 
I have not owned an Esoteric (although I did own one from the company that owns them, Teac) or MSB. I have however owned 14 different DACs before I finally heard the T+A. At that point the rest was history as they say.
 
I am in the market for a new DAC as well so I am watching this thread. T&A is on the list along with many others which have been listed here. Among the 14 DACs that you have owned, were any of them 2-3x the price of the DAC 8? I know price is not everything but quality does tend to trend with price.

Has anyone listened to the Ayon DACs and would be willing to share their experience? They are also on my list.

Thanks

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
 
TheGemState said:
I am in the market for a new DAC as well so I am watching this thread. T&A is on the list along with many others which have been listen here. Among the 14 DACs that you have owned, were any of them 2-3x the price of the DAC 8? I know price is not everything but quality does tend to trend with price.
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No they were not. There were a few in the same range however.
 
the t+a dac8 was released about 5 years ago and is still a fine piece for dsd.
for pcm it doesnt sound better than a good new 1k dac.
today, for 4k you get a aqua la voce s3, a complete different animal over the dac8.

that said, todays 1k dacs do sound terrific.
 
It looks like a fine piece. It all comes down to what you want the most out of your digital. I always liked the sound of Burr-Brown chips (Teac, Denon, and McIntosh that I had used them), however for PCM I would tend to think the Aqua La Voce would be a better machine, being a pure R2R ladder - FPGA-based DAC. Although I do believe that you would have to go much higher than a $1k DAC to best the T+A in PCM (8 separate DAC chips, precession construction, top grade parts, etc.) :P.

However for DSD the Aqua La Voce only goes up to DSD128 because it uses DSD over PCM (DoP) and not Native DSD. So as I said it comes down to what is most important. If you most care about PCM or if you want better DSD. T+A's True One Bit DSD Converter is one of the best available and they do not use DoP for any level of DSD; therefore T+A is using Native DSD (through their proprietary DSD processor) for DSD64, DSD128, DSD256, DSD512, and their higher models DSD1024. I also like that PCM and DSD do not muck each other up in that they use completely separate data paths internally!
 
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