Regenerators vs. Conditioners

[CDLehner]

What's the latest thinking on this? For the longest time...I've wanted to try a P-3 in my system; but I can't shake the arguments, some make...about regenerators stripping away current.

For the record...I would never plug an amp into it; I believe, that goes straight to the wall. But for source, DAC, pre-amp; what beats making your own..."perfect" power?

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I thought this was a thread about hair, until I clicked on it. Darn.

 

[the professor]

I think that a regenerator are great for conditions of very dirty/unstable power coming into the house. Regenerating power isn't as efficient as going straight, its a physics thing. I have no clue how efficient they are. Bigger the better I would think. Ive never heard a system that I thought was more musical with the front end using a regenerator and the amps going straight into the wall. IMO, you have to get a big enough one to power everything, or don't do it at all.

When I was building my house in Oregon, I was talking to the power company about my stereo and the guy suggested buying my own transformer that only my house used. Talk about having a big regenerator. Sooooo ..... $6,000 later, I had my own transformer out side my house. I had never heard somebody could do this before.

I'm not sure that a regenerator eliminates the need for a conditioner tho. Everything you plug into the regenerator pollutes the electricity for everything else you plug in. You need something that cleans the power between components. There are many passive devices on the market these days. I personally like Shunyata, but Nordost and Ansuz also make good products. There are many, I'm not trying to make a list.

I would try conditioners first and if you really have issues then look into a BIG regenerator.

 

[Bodhi]

My observation is the best power conditioners tend to be passive conditioners, albeit with some capacitive storage for improved impulse response & the ability to level the difference between input and output power. I compared connecting my amp directly to wall vs the dedicated high current output on my Gigawatt conditioner & preferred connecting to the conditioner.

A regenerator could be a good idea if you experience wide fluctuations in voltage, especially voltage dips or dirty power as Jock mentioned. One of the best is the Accuphase PS-1220. I can't recommend the PP products because of the evident poor build quality.

 

[jdandy]

I think that a regenerator are great for conditions of very dirty/unstable power coming into the house. Regenerating power isn't as efficient as going straight, its a physics thing. I have no clue how efficient they are. Bigger the better I would think. Ive never heard a system that I thought was more musical with the front end using a regenerator and the amps going straight into the wall. IMO, you have to get a big enough one to power everything, or don't do it at all.

When I was building my house in Oregon, I was talking to the power company about my stereo and the guy suggested buying my own transformer that only my house used. Talk about having a big regenerator. Sooooo ..... $6,000 later, I had my own transformer out side my house. I had never heard somebody could do this before.

I'm not sure that a regenerator eliminates the need for a conditioner tho. Everything you plug into the regenerator pollutes the electricity for everything else you plug in. You need something that cleans the power between components. There are many passive devices on the market these days. I personally like Shunyata, but Nordost and Ansuz also make good products. There are many, I'm not trying to make a list.

I would try conditioners first and if you really have issues then look into a BIG regenerator.

Jock.......Like you I have a dedicate utility transformer that only supplies power to my home. Typically my incoming power has approximately 2.1% THD which is relatively low when compared to many others. I use two PS Audio Power Plant Premiers in the living room system and after the regeneration process the power is cleaned to 0.5% THD. In my studio system I use the PurePower 2000 AC regenerator with battery back-up with similar results plus the advantage of never loosing power during short or momentary power outages. I have had excellent results from both types of regenerators and the resulting improvement in resolution and reduced noise floor. The second advantage the AC regenerators deliver is voltage regulation. Since my dedicated utility transformer is large enough for multiple loads but only has my home connected I have a slightly elevated incoming voltage of 124 to 125 volts. The AC regenerators regulate the voltage output to my audio equipment at a constant 120 volts. They are also capable of doing the same with under voltage issues. When I consider the advantages from this set up, AC regeneration makes sense for me.

 

[slowgeezr]

I use a PSAudio Power Plant Premier for all my source gear. I've been using it for years with no issues. It seems very well built. The power amps plug into their own 20 amp lines and I use some line filters for them. I like the way the PPP works to clean up the distortion coming in via the mains, it seems to reduce incoming measured anomalies by a factor of ten. I think that's pretty good. My incoming power swings over a seven or eight volt swing typically and the PPP produces a steady 120 volts. I like that, too. I agree with the comments that for distortion generated by each piece of gear a filtration system would be necessary. I'm not sure I could use passive filtration for the gear attached to the PPP, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try. When I used my VPI turntable, it seemed to hold speed better when the motor was plugged into the PPP, also. I now have my current turntable motor plugged into it, with no ill effect that I can determine.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

From a prior thread:

http://audioshark.org/power-conditioners-regulators-24/power-what-do-you-do-4239-page9.html#.VWO4k2TBzGc

Lots of people love the regenerators. IMO they are indeed good at reconstructing the incoming power but they are not the best solution for the high instantaneous current required by amplifiers. I see the three "holy grails" of a properly designed electrical foundations follows:


1) Block the system from the outside without limiting instantaneous current or operating current.
2) Star ground the system to avoid ground loops caused by electrical potential deltas at each component's ground without limiting either instantaneous current or operating current to each component.
3) Isolate each component from the significant other components in the system without limiting instantaneous current or operating current.


I believe the best overall soulution for item (1) is to size an isolation transformer as follows: Define the rated current and the maximum instantaneous current for your entire system. Choose a SOTA isolation transformer sized were the transformer rating less the systems rated current is equal to or greater than your systems maximum instantaneous current. A good rule of thumb for instantaneous current (if not available) is 3 to 4 times rated current.


I believe Torus (Piltron) make the best isolation transformer available. If you could size a regenerator large enough to achieve a reserve of this magnitude I think they would be fine but IMO it makes little sense to put a $5000 amp with limited output in front of a $50,000 amp that is capable of extreme speed (slew rate) and dynamics which can only be achieved through available instantaneous current.


Using regenerators for your front end is another matter, but you still need to clean up the incoming power for your amps so why not use a properly sized isolation transformer for your entire system then the outside noise is blocked and your amps have access to massive current. At this point, star grounding (item 2) and component isolation (item 3) are the only remaining objectives and I think there are less obtrusive ways to isolate components than regeneration.

 

[Audioseduction]

I use 2 huge isolation transformers one for my source equipment and one for my amps and speakers. The isolation transformer also has a filtering network circuit that provides separate noise filters on each duplex outlet to reduce component interaction . Each unit provides 20A RMS/60A Peak power. Balanced Power Technologies BP-3.5 Signature Plus with V-Caps. They provide plenty of instantaneous current when needed.

 

[blackdog]

The only advantage to regenerators is their ability to regulate the voltage. Set it at 120V and that's pretty much where it stays.
However that is also its flaw. In order to keep the voltage at the set level, it has to draw current to keep the voltage from sagging. When high demand is required it has to feed itself before feeding the connected components. The result is usually a current lag resulting in compressed dynamics.

it makes little sense to put a $5000 amp with limited output in front of a $50,000 amp

That is exactly what you are doing with a regenerator.
Picture this. A regenerator has a small power supply driving an oscillator (usually very high frequency) this "noise" is then used to produce the line frequency. That line frequency is then amplified by a power amplifier up to the desired line voltage. That internal power amp takes its power from your wall AC. Given that most class A/B amps are between 55% and 65% efficient, and there is wasted power needed to drive the control, and oscillator circuitry, a regenerator at best is maybe 55% efficient. This can choke a large amp. There are ways to improve that figure, but they can never be close to a passive or isolation type device.
One other serious disadvantage is (coming from someone who's had to fix them) is that when they fail, they fail BIG. Sometimes even taking out connected equipment.

 

[Honeybee]

Will a regenerator have an adverse effect on a modest 100 WPC solid state amplifier that is only used for near field (Low Volume) listening?

 

[Mike]

Will a regenerator have an adverse effect on a modest 100 WPC solid state amplifier that is only used for near field (Low Volume) listening?

Not at all. It will likely be quite the opposite.

Although, as a general rule, I prefer regenerators for digital and conditioners for everything else.

 

[Honeybee]

Originally Posted by Honeybee : Will a regenerator have an adverse effect on a modest 100 WPC solid state amplifier that is only used for near field (Low Volume) listening?

Not at all. It will likely be quite the opposite.

Although, as a general rule, I prefer regenerators for digital and conditioners for everything else.

Thanks Mike. I was concerned because of Blackdog's post:

"The only advantage to regenerators is their ability to regulate the voltage. Set it at 120V and that's pretty much where it stays.
However that is also its flaw. In order to keep the voltage at the set level, it has to draw current to keep the voltage from sagging. When high demand is required it has to feed itself before feeding the connected components. The result is usually a current lag resulting in compressed dynamics. "


But since (in general) I don't make huge demands on my amp, I am inclined to plug my modest system (TT, CD, AMP) into a PS Audio P5 and let it run.

 

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Honeybee : Will a regenerator have an adverse effect on a modest 100 WPC solid state amplifier that is only used for near field (Low Volume) listening?



Thanks Mike. I was concerned because of Blackdog's post:

"The only advantage to regenerators is their ability to regulate the voltage. Set it at 120V and that's pretty much where it stays.
However that is also its flaw. In order to keep the voltage at the set level, it has to draw current to keep the voltage from sagging. When high demand is required it has to feed itself before feeding the connected components. The result is usually a current lag resulting in compressed dynamics. "


But since (in general) I don't make huge demands on my amp, I am inclined to plug my modest system (TT, CD, AMP) into a PS Audio P5 and let it run.

I think you're assumption is correct. If the amp is drawing only at a modest level, you should be fine.

Are you running a PS Audio PowerPlant, like the P5 or P10?

I myself use APC S20's. They are conditioners with UPS, but during the summer here in Florida with all our lighting and power outages, its a must.

 

[Honeybee]

I think you're assumption is correct. If the amp is drawing only at a modest level, you should be fine.

Are you running a PS Audio PowerPlant, like the P5 or P10?

I myself use APC S20's. They are conditioners with UPS, but during the summer here in Florida with all our lighting and power outages, its a must.

I plan to order a P5 soon. Here in AZ we do have Summer lighting. Not like FLA tho.....I once saw ball lighting in Tampa....I thought it was to 2nd coming.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

Will a regenerator have an adverse effect on a modest 100 WPC solid state amplifier that is only used for near field (Low Volume) listening?

I would think your application is where a regenerator would really work as designed. It should be a good thing, but this of course assumes your speakers are matched with the amps well. I would still look at your speaker impedance in addition to your amp. If they have real low impedance and a bad phase angle at the same frequencies they can ask for a ton of current. This might be bad for both your amp and the regenerator even at low volumes in the near field depending on how much those 100 watts are achieved from voltage at rating. Just a thought.

 

[Audioseduction]

I plan to order a P5 soon. Here in AZ we do have Summer lighting. Not like FLA tho.....I once saw ball lighting in Tampa....I thought it was to 2nd coming.

I would suggest get a isolation transformer for your amp and a regen for your front end. You surely don't want any bottleneck impacting your amp's performance.

 

[Audioseduction]

Correction! It's better to plug your amps directly into the outlet. Going though a power conditioner, isolation transformer and regenerators seem to take a bit of life out of the SQ. I have my amps plugged directly into the wall.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

Correction! It's better to plug your amps directly into the outlet. Going though a power conditioner, isolation transformer and regenerators seem to take a bit of life out of the SQ. I have my amps plugged directly into the wall.

Not if your isolation transformer is big enough. I put in 75 amps in for my 125 watt mono blocks. Torus recommends 3 to 4 times amp's current rating to avoid compression in dynamics from lack of instantaneous current.

 

[Audioseduction]

Not if your isolation transformer is big enough. I put in 75 amps in for my 125 watt mono blocks. Torus recommends 3 to 4 times amp's current rating to avoid compression in dynamics from lack of instantaneous current.

What will it take for 320W per channel?

 

[The Sandman]

Not if your isolation transformer is big enough. I put in 75 amps in for my 125 watt mono blocks. Torus recommends 3 to 4 times amp's current rating to avoid compression in dynamics from lack of instantaneous current.

What will it take for 320W per channel?

Max current output rating for the XA160.5s is 36 amps. You're gonna need a pair of *big* isolation transformers. :wacko:

And it's 50 amps for the XA 160.8s.