F112 vs F113

I had 2 F113's in my system for awhile and initially thought they sounded great. As time went on I found that I was turning them on less and less. Might have been since I had full range speakers and why not just use only them. I did move one down to the HT room to replace a F112 and thought it was an improvement for movies.
 
I do find RELs integrate better than JLs for 2 ch. but for home theater JLs are the king

Of course it mostly depends on the individual driver but ..... The whole smaller size is faster just is flawed. To achieve the same volume a smaller sized driver has to move farther than a larger sized driver which makes it harder to be as fast as a larger driver. Cone stiffness and magnet structure is much more important for speed than size but smaller is not faster than larger.
 
the professor said:
I do find RELs integrate better than JLs for 2 ch. but for home theater JLs are the king

Of course it mostly depends on the individual driver but ..... The whole smaller size is faster just is flawed. To achieve the same volume a smaller sized driver has to move farther than a larger sized driver which makes it harder to be as fast as a larger driver. Cone stiffness and magnet structure is much more important for speed than size but smaller is not faster than larger.
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Interesting...I see you have the Wilson Watchdog. I have never heard it but read great things about it. What else might you have compared it to?
 
Mike said:
It has nothing to do with "going low". It's all about smoothing out nasty bass nodes in the room. What subs do (as I'm enjoying right now by using my Seaton Submersives as a test) is widen and deepen the soundstage, smooth out nasty bass nodes and produce an overall more enjoyable listening experience. Paul, if you could hear the richness of piano and the smoothing out of vocals and everything they are doing, you would sign up! I listen with them on and then off, and there is no going back. You cannot tell the subs are on. You don't hear them....but they fill in the soundstage beautifully.

Most people think subs are for bass. Well, they can fill in some of those 20-30hz notes where most speakers start to roll off, but they do much much more. Think of them as part of the entire room treatment process.
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Amen! That was exactly my intention for adding a ML BalancedForce 210 sub to my ML Summits. I had a nasty null at ~60 Hz, and adding just one sub filled that in nicely. Here's the XTZ Room Analyzer before/after measurement (and the sub is still breaking in, so not even fully dialed in yet with the Summits). I also have an older NHT Sub Two that I might throw into the mix!

highres_333542382.jpeg
 
Over the years I've listened to a lot of subs and anytime I hear one that integrates well in a 2 ch system I take notice. REL seems to come up the most. The watch dogs are almost never on display so it's tough to really appreciate what they do. Being passive and w the Wilson controller (crossover) gives you the flexibility to make them work great w any speaker.

Where most people go wrong w subs is that they use second rate interconnects and/or speaker cable - "it's only for the sub so why bother" is what I hear all the time from dealers. For HT it might not matter but for 2ch it absolutely matters.

In practice, I'm not a DSP fan in subs because I've never heard them sound great in a 2ch system. I've never had the opportunity to play w a couple in my room to really know if it's setup or the sub itself It is hard for me to think that converting a signal to digital and then back again can be a good thing especially at reasonable prices. A good DtoA costs a bunch and then add a AtoD and then expect good results in a package less than your DAC????





LL21 said:
Interesting...I see you have the Wilson Watchdog. I have never heard it but read great things about it. What else might you have compared it to?
Click to expand...
 
the professor said:
Over the years I've listened to a lot of subs and anytime I hear one that integrates well in a 2 ch system I take notice. REL seems to come up the most. The watch dogs are almost never on display so it's tough to really appreciate what they do. Being passive and w the Wilson controller (crossover) gives you the flexibility to make them work great w any speaker.

Where most people go wrong w subs is that they use second rate interconnects and/or speaker cable - "it's only for the sub so why bother" is what I hear all the time from dealers. For HT it might not matter but for 2ch it absolutely matters.

In practice, I'm not a DSP fan in subs because I've never heard them sound great in a 2ch system. I've never had the opportunity to play w a couple in my room to really know if it's setup or the sub itself It is hard for me to think that converting a signal to digital and then back again can be a good thing especially at reasonable prices. A good DtoA costs a bunch and then add a AtoD and then expect good results in a package less than your DAC????
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Thanks...good to know. I have been fortunate with my Velodyne DD18 (and I use Transp Ref XL interconnects and high quality Sablon Audio QGC power cable). Its in an isolation sandwich (Ultra 5s and Auralex isolation platform underneath and 66lbs solid brass on top of 3 HRS Nimbus Couplers to mass damp above).

But it also helps that I only run it below 40hz (48db slope so its silent above this point). I am just curious what using a Wilson Thor would do instead...
 
the professor said:
I do find RELs integrate better than JLs for 2 ch. but for home theater JLs are the king

Of course it mostly depends on the individual driver but ..... The whole smaller size is faster just is flawed. To achieve the same volume a smaller sized driver has to move farther than a larger sized driver which makes it harder to be as fast as a larger driver. Cone stiffness and magnet structure is much more important for speed than size but smaller is not faster than larger.
Click to expand...

I've heard this side as well. I was just passing on what I had read here I believe. And IIRC, the post mentioned some of the staff at JL used the 112 themselves because of the 'speed' factor. But because this is not first hand info, I will stop there.



the professor said:
Over the years I've listened to a lot of subs and anytime I hear one that integrates well in a 2 ch system I take notice. REL seems to come up the most. The watch dogs are almost never on display so it's tough to really appreciate what they do. Being passive and w the Wilson controller (crossover) gives you the flexibility to make them work great w any speaker.

...
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Interesting. Was just reading the Rel R528 sub review in TAS. Sounds like a winner...
 
I'm using F113 in a small room and at times it is fatiguing. This unit is planned to go in the HT room 16x22. That should change things, I'm also entertaining getting a second sub. The F113 goes lower than F112.

Barry
 
I've always wanted to hear the thors.

The lower the crossover frequency the better. :)

LL21 said:
Thanks...good to know. I have been fortunate with my Velodyne DD18 (and I use Transp Ref XL interconnects and high quality Sablon Audio QGC power cable). Its in an isolation sandwich (Ultra 5s and Auralex isolation platform underneath and 66lbs solid brass on top of 3 HRS Nimbus Couplers to mass damp above).

But it also helps that I only run it below 40hz (48db slope so its silent above this point). I am just curious what using a Wilson Thor would do instead...
Click to expand...
 
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Well Mike, you know where my loyalties lie in the 2ch low frequency camp. What I've just heard has me in a lather, but thats another thread. 2ch has to be fast! I think you are on the right track though but I suspect to see some action in the f/s thread in a few.... :D
 
BlueMcIntosh said:
Yeah Mike when I spoke with guy at the JL Audio he was highly recommended to me. I never get a chance to use it though. Hope you get that chance.
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Paul - how did you incorporate the subs into your system? DSP? Crossover?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Cross over. I will tell you more if you are interested it was done by the dealer though. ( going home after work )
 
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