DSD capable DACs
- Thread starter Cavl
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ted_b
New member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2013
- Messages
- 22
Although my feedback will be down the road, I will be:
1) demoing/evaluating the Lampi DSD-only DAC starting early next week (Scot from Part-Time-Audiophile sending demo unit on to me as we speak)
2) beta testing the new DSP firmware for my MA-1 as soon as Meitner has it internally finalized. Shahin says it not only improves PCM sonics but plans have it bringing about new features (hint hint).
I am late on my Chord review (for Computer Audiophile) but suffice it to say that it does PCM extremely well, and nowhere near its price point. I'd like to say the same for DSD, but to my ears it's a bit polite. Maybe the rumored firmware update wiull finally surface and improve that aspect...dunno.
This "real" DSD discussion is very interesting. It is pretty clear that tricks are being done internally with many of these DSD-capable DACs (see our Google docs database of DSD equipment for an updated-as-often-as-we-can list) since some of the older chipsets, some FPGA's and some ladder-styles being used are clearly not one-bit capable. However, the real proof is in the hearing, so I can't sit here and say that the journey is any more relevant than the destination.
1) demoing/evaluating the Lampi DSD-only DAC starting early next week (Scot from Part-Time-Audiophile sending demo unit on to me as we speak)
2) beta testing the new DSP firmware for my MA-1 as soon as Meitner has it internally finalized. Shahin says it not only improves PCM sonics but plans have it bringing about new features (hint hint).
I am late on my Chord review (for Computer Audiophile) but suffice it to say that it does PCM extremely well, and nowhere near its price point. I'd like to say the same for DSD, but to my ears it's a bit polite. Maybe the rumored firmware update wiull finally surface and improve that aspect...dunno.
This "real" DSD discussion is very interesting. It is pretty clear that tricks are being done internally with many of these DSD-capable DACs (see our Google docs database of DSD equipment for an updated-as-often-as-we-can list) since some of the older chipsets, some FPGA's and some ladder-styles being used are clearly not one-bit capable. However, the real proof is in the hearing, so I can't sit here and say that the journey is any more relevant than the destination.
Although my feedback will be down the road, I will be:
1) demoing/evaluating the Lampi DSD-only DAC starting early next week (Scot from Part-Time-Audiophile sending demo unit on to me as we speak)
2) beta testing the new DSP firmware for my MA-1 as soon as Meitner has it internally finalized. Shahin says it not only improves PCM sonics but plans have it bringing about new features (hint hint).
I am late on my Chord review (for Computer Audiophile) but suffice it to say that it does PCM extremely well, and nowhere near its price point. I'd like to say the same for DSD, but to my ears it's a bit polite. Maybe the rumored firmware update wiull finally surface and improve that aspect...dunno.
This "real" DSD discussion is very interesting. It is pretty clear that tricks are being done internally with many of these DSD-capable DACs (see our Google docs database of DSD equipment for an updated-as-often-as-we-can list) since some of the older chipsets, some FPGA's and some ladder-styles being used are clearly not one-bit capable. However, the real proof is in the hearing, so I can't sit here and say that the journey is any more relevant than the destination.
Ted - I'm really looking forward to your impressions on the Lampizator DSD DAC.
Hello all, first post on AudioShark. I am hoping to get an opinion on a Luxman DA-06 dac related to DSD and other comments earlier in the thread. Review in CA looks good for this unit as does the price. Anyone familiar with its capabilities? Thanks avnut.
Ricardo Nonato
New member
Hi Guys,
someone had the opportunity to hear the Gryphon Kalliope DAC? But he runs the $ 15K that was proposed, in Europe it costs around 20K euros.
Apparently he's coming to fight with the big stacks, but to speak with more certainty, just listening. Early next year will be getting one of these here in Brazil, and I can test it on my system.
I will post here.
Nice regards,
Ricardo Nonato.
someone had the opportunity to hear the Gryphon Kalliope DAC? But he runs the $ 15K that was proposed, in Europe it costs around 20K euros.
Apparently he's coming to fight with the big stacks, but to speak with more certainty, just listening. Early next year will be getting one of these here in Brazil, and I can test it on my system.
I will post here.
Nice regards,
Ricardo Nonato.
Hi Ricardo. I look forward to your impressions.
Ricardo Nonato
New member
Mike,
First I'm sorry if this is not the best place to talk about it, but I saw in the description of your system that you have the CAPS 3.0.
Do you by chance have heard the Aurender compared with the CAPS?
I want to buy a music server, but I'm in doubt between some models and CAPS is one of them. I am among the following models: Aurender S10, CAPS 3.0 and Aria.
Below is the link to Aria:
ARIA
Your impressions would be very valuable for me.
Nice regards,
Ricardo.
First I'm sorry if this is not the best place to talk about it, but I saw in the description of your system that you have the CAPS 3.0.
Do you by chance have heard the Aurender compared with the CAPS?
I want to buy a music server, but I'm in doubt between some models and CAPS is one of them. I am among the following models: Aurender S10, CAPS 3.0 and Aria.
Below is the link to Aria:
ARIA
Your impressions would be very valuable for me.
Nice regards,
Ricardo.
Hi Ricardo - I haven't been able to compare the two, sorry. Check out the Weiss Man 301 too. Interesting product.
Ricardo Nonato
New member
Thanks Mike!!!
Interesting DSD chatter from WBF:
Actually, you're a lot closer to being right on than you may think. DSD (1-bit two level Pulse Density Modulation) isn't digital in the first place, it's ANALOG! PCM is digital, in that it's a sequence of discrete 2's complement binary words of n bits, with each word being a stand alone digital expression of an analog signal level, at the sample time. It's just like frames of movie film, strung together to convey motion.
DSD, a Sony/Philips marketing term for a 1-bit two levels analog format is as analog as AM or FM radio. Like them, it's simply a signal modulating a carrier for transmission purposes, and detected at the receiving end to retrieve the signal. Unlike them, instead of modulating the amplitude or base frequency of a carrier, it modulates the density of pulses. This occurs as a hunting/feedback process in a Delta-Sigma Modulator, creating a pulse stream clocked at the sample rate who's density is proportional to the signal level. No frames, no words, all continuous, and most distinguishing, no weight or value! That's why it has to be either converted to PCM to be processed in a computer, or converted to multi-bit Pulse Density Modulation, ala the Sonoma DAW.
Since it by definition has only two levels, a computer can store and retrieve it, just not process it, because it does not represent actual sample values. All it represents is change of levels through the density of the pulses in a continuous pulse stream. The higher the level, the denser the pulse chain. ANALOG!
That's why you're correct saying just filter it, and get the signal back.
========================
I know Tom. I have such a DAC. ... a Lampi DSD-only Dac and I know the motion picture film analogy and why DSD is MORE bit efficient than PCM. People mistakenly think its about comparing resolution, but its about how much new info each packet in the stream brings. DSD references the CHANGE.
The philosophy for the Lampi DSD Dac is that it's essentially ANALOG and treated totally in the analog domain.
==============================
Originally Posted by Andre Marc
Wow..I have not seen it explained so clearly, thank you!!!!"
And when it is explained that clearly, it is obviously wrong.
DSD is just as digital as PCM, in that the signal is stored in discrete, quantized values at a constant sample rate. Just because one system uses a higher sample rate but a smaller number of bits (1, in the case of DSD) doesn't make one "analog" and the other "digital". DSD is pulse-width modulation, but the width of the pulses can't take arbitrary analog values - the resolution of the pulse width is limited by the sample rate. Standard DSD, with a sample rate of 2.8224 MHz, thus uses a digital data rate of 2822 kBit/s per channel (comparable to the 2304 kBit/s of 24/96 PCM - but because DSD is usually considered equivalent of 20/96 PCM, we can see that PCM is somewhat more efficient).
Yes, digital PWM data is easier to convert into an analog form (all you need is a low-pass summation filter), but it still can only take set, quantified values (unlike analog that forms a continuous function that can take arbitrary values).
"DSD-wide", as used in "DSD" editing and mastering systems, is 8-bit PCM, but still at the 2.8224 MHz sample rate, while DXD is pure 24-bit PCM at 352.8 kHz.
=========================
Ahhh Julf,
You dont even need filtration to play back DSD. Just connect it to a speaker and you get distortion filled music, so there is NO conversion going on, and thus its more analog than digital. Its a finite pulse representation of a continuous waveform without any coding.
So you are BOTH correct.
DSD is more bit efficient though, as it reports the changes from initial reference and not the status quo plus incremental change like celluloid movie recording & PCM.like celluloid movie recording & PCM.
Actually, you're a lot closer to being right on than you may think. DSD (1-bit two level Pulse Density Modulation) isn't digital in the first place, it's ANALOG! PCM is digital, in that it's a sequence of discrete 2's complement binary words of n bits, with each word being a stand alone digital expression of an analog signal level, at the sample time. It's just like frames of movie film, strung together to convey motion.
DSD, a Sony/Philips marketing term for a 1-bit two levels analog format is as analog as AM or FM radio. Like them, it's simply a signal modulating a carrier for transmission purposes, and detected at the receiving end to retrieve the signal. Unlike them, instead of modulating the amplitude or base frequency of a carrier, it modulates the density of pulses. This occurs as a hunting/feedback process in a Delta-Sigma Modulator, creating a pulse stream clocked at the sample rate who's density is proportional to the signal level. No frames, no words, all continuous, and most distinguishing, no weight or value! That's why it has to be either converted to PCM to be processed in a computer, or converted to multi-bit Pulse Density Modulation, ala the Sonoma DAW.
Since it by definition has only two levels, a computer can store and retrieve it, just not process it, because it does not represent actual sample values. All it represents is change of levels through the density of the pulses in a continuous pulse stream. The higher the level, the denser the pulse chain. ANALOG!
That's why you're correct saying just filter it, and get the signal back.
========================
I know Tom. I have such a DAC. ... a Lampi DSD-only Dac and I know the motion picture film analogy and why DSD is MORE bit efficient than PCM. People mistakenly think its about comparing resolution, but its about how much new info each packet in the stream brings. DSD references the CHANGE.
The philosophy for the Lampi DSD Dac is that it's essentially ANALOG and treated totally in the analog domain.
==============================
Wow..I have not seen it explained so clearly, thank you!!!!"
And when it is explained that clearly, it is obviously wrong.
DSD is just as digital as PCM, in that the signal is stored in discrete, quantized values at a constant sample rate. Just because one system uses a higher sample rate but a smaller number of bits (1, in the case of DSD) doesn't make one "analog" and the other "digital". DSD is pulse-width modulation, but the width of the pulses can't take arbitrary analog values - the resolution of the pulse width is limited by the sample rate. Standard DSD, with a sample rate of 2.8224 MHz, thus uses a digital data rate of 2822 kBit/s per channel (comparable to the 2304 kBit/s of 24/96 PCM - but because DSD is usually considered equivalent of 20/96 PCM, we can see that PCM is somewhat more efficient).
Yes, digital PWM data is easier to convert into an analog form (all you need is a low-pass summation filter), but it still can only take set, quantified values (unlike analog that forms a continuous function that can take arbitrary values).
"DSD-wide", as used in "DSD" editing and mastering systems, is 8-bit PCM, but still at the 2.8224 MHz sample rate, while DXD is pure 24-bit PCM at 352.8 kHz.
=========================
Ahhh Julf,
You dont even need filtration to play back DSD. Just connect it to a speaker and you get distortion filled music, so there is NO conversion going on, and thus its more analog than digital. Its a finite pulse representation of a continuous waveform without any coding.
So you are BOTH correct.
DSD is more bit efficient though, as it reports the changes from initial reference and not the status quo plus incremental change like celluloid movie recording & PCM.like celluloid movie recording & PCM.
Penthouse-D
New member
Nice DSD article in this months The Absolute Sound. It includes a list of compatable gear.
More DSD technical blurb from Tom:
DSD and PCM, from a digital storage standpoint are both quantized, in that they are two level digital in form at a fixed clock rate, but only PCM has an actual quantized weight that expresses a value. Like a voltmeter, it can be decoded to an actual voltage at that sample time. DSD (1-bit two level Pulse Density Modulation) expresses only relative change indicators each sample time, and no weight information. It is analog in that the DSD (1-bit two level) pulse stream is a continuous modulated pulse density stream of relative amplitude values when decoded, ie, low pass filtered. Follow the sequence in the table in the middle of the page to understand the workings of a first order Pulse Density Modulation Delta-Sigma Modulator:
http://www.embedded.com/design/debug...al-converters-
DSD (1-bit two level Pulse Density Modulation) is not Pulse Width Modulation, although they are in the same family.
"DSD Wide" is not PCM. It is a multi-bit (8) two level Pulse Density Modulation pulse stream, like 1-bit two level PDM, where there is still no quantized value ala PCM, but a 8-bit word based relative value from sample to sample like 1-bit two level PDM (DSD), where there is a binary relationship between the 8 bits. Therefore there is a binary weighted relationship between samples that is processable in a computer. Of course PDM has to operate at a much higher sampling rate than PCM, relative to the signal bandwidth, to allow enough samples to recognize the fastest transients. PCM is a frame/sample based system of 2's compliment binary format of actual amplitude values. It is MUCH less efficient than PDM due to all the redundant data carried from sample to sample, and therefore less resolution than PDM for the same data rate. It's the primary no one outside audio uses it.
DSD and PCM, from a digital storage standpoint are both quantized, in that they are two level digital in form at a fixed clock rate, but only PCM has an actual quantized weight that expresses a value. Like a voltmeter, it can be decoded to an actual voltage at that sample time. DSD (1-bit two level Pulse Density Modulation) expresses only relative change indicators each sample time, and no weight information. It is analog in that the DSD (1-bit two level) pulse stream is a continuous modulated pulse density stream of relative amplitude values when decoded, ie, low pass filtered. Follow the sequence in the table in the middle of the page to understand the workings of a first order Pulse Density Modulation Delta-Sigma Modulator:
http://www.embedded.com/design/debug...al-converters-
DSD (1-bit two level Pulse Density Modulation) is not Pulse Width Modulation, although they are in the same family.
"DSD Wide" is not PCM. It is a multi-bit (8) two level Pulse Density Modulation pulse stream, like 1-bit two level PDM, where there is still no quantized value ala PCM, but a 8-bit word based relative value from sample to sample like 1-bit two level PDM (DSD), where there is a binary relationship between the 8 bits. Therefore there is a binary weighted relationship between samples that is processable in a computer. Of course PDM has to operate at a much higher sampling rate than PCM, relative to the signal bandwidth, to allow enough samples to recognize the fastest transients. PCM is a frame/sample based system of 2's compliment binary format of actual amplitude values. It is MUCH less efficient than PDM due to all the redundant data carried from sample to sample, and therefore less resolution than PDM for the same data rate. It's the primary no one outside audio uses it.
Looks interesting for sure.