Current Pricing

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Mr Peabody

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I've noticed some brands are offering sales or discounts currently. I thought I'd throw this out for discussion if you all think it's just that time of the year or is high prices beginning to take their toll?

The brands haven't been any of the very high end but I have noticed Anthem, Paradigm and Golden Ear to mention a couple off the top of my head. I believe even Levinson but that's not unusual for them when they decide they want to move some stock.
 
Although I think the two are mutually exclusive, I DO think there is a correction beginning or about to begin. I particularly witnessed some European amp manufacturers (Dart, Goldmund, etc) in what seemed like a race or competition to be the most expensive, because they felt, rightly or wrongly, they were the best and therefore could command it.

The rapid influx of new brands is keeping this in check IMO, along with the market itself. It’s not to say brand X or brand Y don’t have a right to command top dollar or that it’s not “worth it”, but we are indeed seeing more of stabilizing in the market. There are wonderful amps at $10k, $20K, $50k or $100K. $250k and above is rarified air. The funnel is pretty tiny at that level.
 
I 100% believe that a market correction is in order. Not to say that certain brands do not "deserve" or "earned" the top dog end of the market. But I firmly believe that high end audio has over priced themselves to a point where it is in fact affecting the over all market. I feel that there are huge numbers of people who would love to jump into our hobby, but researching names and products will produce such astronomical pricing that they shy away. I have nothing to base this opinion on other than being into audio for 50 years and seeing this expensive hobby evolve to a point where names that used to be on the upper crust of affordable are now completely unaffordable.
 
Randy Myers said:
I 100% believe that a market correction is in order. Not to say that certain brands do not "deserve" or "earned" the top dog end of the market. But I firmly believe that high end audio has over priced themselves to a point where it is in fact affecting the over all market. I feel that there are huge numbers of people who would love to jump into our hobby, but researching names and products will produce such astronomical pricing that they shy away. I have nothing to base this opinion on other than being into audio for 50 years and seeing this expensive hobby evolve to a point where names that used to be on the upper crust of affordable are now completely unaffordable.
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I'm not so sure that's true. Someone wanting to start out can get a Yamaha, NAD or similar integrated for under $400.00. JBL has HT receivers beginning at $399.00. My daughter bought a Dayton Audio integrated for under $400.00. It's surprisingly pretty good and can drive KEF R3's. It's a start and most of it is decent for the money.

Many of the brands on Suncoast Direct are good starts into better audio.

I do agree that after Covid inflation took prices way up for much of the high end. Warranted or not can be debated.

"High end is a different story, you need to have some serious cash to buy into brands we knew like McIntosh, Mark Levinson, Sim Audio etc.

I have to wonder if the perception of high prices is what's making vintage such a craze. Being around in that era I feel it's a misplaced notion. People are paying more than original cost for these items and I feel equal or better can be bought for the same money.
 
Mr Peabody said:
I'm not so sure that's true. Someone wanting to start out can get a Yamaha, NAD or similar integrated for under $400.00. JBL has HT receivers beginning at $399.00. My daughter bought a Dayton Audio integrated for under $400.00. It's surprisingly pretty good and can drive KEF R3's. It's a start and most of it is decent for the money.

Many of the brands on Suncoast Direct are good starts into better audio.

I do agree that after Covid inflation took prices way up for much of the high end. Warranted or not can be debated.

"High end is a different story, you need to have some serious cash to buy into brands we knew like McIntosh, Mark Levinson, Sim Audio etc.

I have to wonder if the perception of high prices is what's making vintage such a craze. Being around in that era I feel it's a misplaced notion. People are paying more than original cost for these items and I feel equal or better can be bought for the same money.
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There always have been decent cheaper gear. I sold an absolute ton of Yamaha as an example back in the day. And it was excellent gear. But times have changed. There are much fewer audio stores and even fewer that know what the heck they are talking about. The better ones, such as Mike's sell some of the best in the world. But, a new to the hobby person who is not wealthier than most would drop a load (quite literally) looking at that gear.

Going to an audio show is as bad if not even worse. They show case the best, which is cool, but someone trying to get into the hobby would again, drop a load... most of the mid level brands and models are not shown in these stores and shows. Back in the day we had most Yamaha models, most Nakamichi models, etc., on display, and some of us who knew how to show the difference to new people to the hobby.

Online retailers do not help the matter much. Unfortunately, this is where most people have access to higher end gear, since a very small percentage of us have easy access to quality stores, like Mike's. On the central coast of California, there was exactly ZERO stores. You would have to drive 4-5 hours to visit a store. Here in Wichita there are exactly ZERO stores. I would have to drive to Kansas City to find a store to actually touch and feel gear. The best record store in the world is much closer than that.

Another example, back at the Central Coast Audio Club in California. There was three maybe four members who could actually afford this type of gear, and 140 members who were for the most part older folks with vintage gear who got into the hobby when it was much more affordable or younger members were mostly DIY since they could not afford to buy the gear that is most often featured at shows, magazines, etc.

In my view, showcasing this insanely expensive gear that only one percenters could afford is not the best thing for our hobby. I have yet to have a good argument to dissuade me from this opinion. I believe top end companies need to bring their prices down and/or do a huge concentration on much lower priced models to allow for a much larger portion of potential customers to get into this hobby.
 
Having been in the hobby a while now, probably like many I started with lower end gear. That was partly because I didn't know the sound that could come from higher-end gear. I did't have opportunities to listen to that level gear, but several years back I took a more serious approach, reading "reviews", visiting a couple brick & mortars, and scanning many forums from which to base decisions to assemble a collection My current system, while not the truly high-end, does give me the sound I'm perfectly happy with! I'm pretty much done chasing "what's next"!

I've seen the prices rise on many pieces, but that seems to be the norm across my other hobbies as well. We are assembling a small group of "audiophiles" here in my area, but most all say they cannot or will not pay the current prices of upper tier equipment. The majority seem to focus more on vintage equipment and say they like the sound. Since this is a personal-choice hobby, that's fine!

I am not sure any across-the-board price reductions can be expected anytime soon, particularly on high-demand gear. To me some of the reasons for higher prices are artificial, I certainly have no choice but to either pay or pass! My thought is that you seek out the best deals you can find because they are indeed out there.
 
Randy Myers said:
There always have been decent cheaper gear. I sold an absolute ton of Yamaha as an example back in the day. And it was excellent gear. But times have changed. There are much fewer audio stores and even fewer that know what the heck they are talking about. The better ones, such as Mike's sell some of the best in the world. But, a new to the hobby person who is not wealthier than most would drop a load (quite literally) looking at that gear.

Going to an audio show is as bad if not even worse. They show case the best, which is cool, but someone trying to get into the hobby would again, drop a load... most of the mid level brands and models are not shown in these stores and shows. Back in the day we had most Yamaha models, most Nakamichi models, etc., on display, and some of us who knew how to show the difference to new people to the hobby.

Online retailers do not help the matter much. Unfortunately, this is where most people have access to higher end gear, since a very small percentage of us have easy access to quality stores, like Mike's. On the central coast of California, there was exactly ZERO stores. You would have to drive 4-5 hours to visit a store. Here in Wichita there are exactly ZERO stores. I would have to drive to Kansas City to find a store to actually touch and feel gear. The best record store in the world is much closer than that.

Another example, back at the Central Coast Audio Club in California. There was three maybe four members who could actually afford this type of gear, and 140 members who were for the most part older folks with vintage gear who got into the hobby when it was much more affordable or younger members were mostly DIY since they could not afford to buy the gear that is most often featured at shows, magazines, etc.

In my view, showcasing this insanely expensive gear that only one percenters could afford is not the best thing for our hobby. I have yet to have a good argument to dissuade me from this opinion. I believe top end companies need to bring their prices down and/or do a huge concentration on much lower priced models to allow for a much larger portion of potential customers to get into this hobby.
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I hear you it takes 5 figures to get ARC separates these days. But let's look at this the consumer is a difficult lot saying they want something but sometimes not really.

Granted Cary Audio is not a household name outside audio, I think I first heard of them on NPR. However, some years back they put out a line of gear called Audio Electronics less expensive then Cary yet they wanted to maintain a level of quality. I don't know the ins and outs but the line didn't last long. I remember their pitch of wanting to offer something to compete with the Chinese gear coming in. My guess is they found it was too expensive with labor here and maintaining a quality product.

Levinson tried before that with Proceed. Again I don't know the full story but no Proceed today.

There have been some successful attempts at going for both higher end and more affordable as in Aragon and Accurus. Stupid move on Klipsch's part to let that fall under, IMO.
 
gordon said:
I thought Levinson bought Proceed, but my memory is often wrong.
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Proceed was a line introduced by Levinson when they were owned by Madrigal. Proceed was closed out in 2002 as a decision when Levinson went to Harman. To my understanding Proceed was to be a more affordable line and also used to test new technology.
 
Mr Peabody said:
I hear you it takes 5 figures to get ARC separates these days. But let's look at this the consumer is a difficult lot saying they want something but sometimes not really.

Granted Cary Audio is not a household name outside audio, I think I first heard of them on NPR. However, some years back they put out a line of gear called Audio Electronics less expensive then Cary yet they wanted to maintain a level of quality. I don't know the ins and outs but the line didn't last long. I remember their pitch of wanting to offer something to compete with the Chinese gear coming in. My guess is they found it was too expensive with labor here and maintaining a quality product.

Levinson tried before that with Proceed. Again I don't know the full story but no Proceed today.

There have been some successful attempts at going for both higher end and more affordable as in Aragon and Accurus. Stupid move on Klipsch's part to let that fall under, IMO.
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ARC is making a Hail Mary pass with their $90k monos. A pair of REF250SE’s (or even non-SE’s) will perform just fine. $15-17K is the going rate. Unless I’m mistaken, the KT170 is a direct replacement for the KT120 in most amplifiers (obviously confirm with your manufacturer), but I believe this to be the case.
 
Mike said:
ARC is making a Hail Mary pass with their $90k monos. A pair of REF250SE’s (or even non-SE’s) will perform just fine. $15-17K is the going rate. Unless I’m mistaken, the KT170 is a direct replacement for the KT120 in most amplifiers (obviously confirm with your manufacturer), but I believe this to be the case.
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$90k monos.... seriously, how many people do they feel can afford ninety thousand dollar amplifiers? Even $15-$17k for just the amplifier is way above what 99% of people can afford. We love our music, yes, and many of us have worked hard our whole lives to setup a solid retirement, have some disposable income for our hobbies. My McIntosh pre-amp and amp definitely pushed the high end of my affordable budget, and I would consider my wife and I fairly decently setup compared to most retired persons in this country.

I can purchase a new guitar here and there; I recently bought my wife her dream sewing machine ($22k).... but these are rare purchases. Very few people can buy this level of gear... very few people can afford $100k systems. I personally believe this is one of the reasons that vintage gear is having such a huge resurgence (or so it appears). Just few years ago $50k was considered a very high end system, now $100k seems to be the entry point for what would be considered a quality high end system. Our hobby is quickly becoming unreachable for a majority of the people who really have an interest.

There are also very few B&M stores. Almost exclusively in large metropolitan areas. Again, pricing has to be a factor. For a B&M store to stay in business they need to sell a certain amount of gear (a certain amount of profit). Very small sales on extremely high priced gear will not keep a store open in a small market. Again I use Wichita as an example. The largest city in Kansas with a population of 700,000 people in the surrounding area. There is not a single audio store here.... not one that I am aware of. This is becoming the norm around the country. 1%'ers can afford to travel to the extreme stores, and afford for these companies to bring the chosen gear to their houses. 99% of the people have Best Buy crap to look at or purchasing gear online without the ability to touch, feel, and listen to prior to purchase.

A good example is back when I managed some audio stores, Binghamton, a small city, had three or four stores. Syracuse, a small but larger city had four or five stores. As far as I know, the only store in either city is Audio Classic in Vestal (Binghamton) which is mainly there because of its ties to McIntosh.

It is a very bad trend and does not bode well to long term stability of our industry, our hobby.
 
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In my country there are lots of audio stores. Even in my small city of about 100k citizens there is one selling nice brands like Bowers and wilkins, qacoustics teac and eversolo. In bigger cities think almost every city has a store like that or even the more high end stuff.

Quality audio is still popular here.
 
TopCat said:
Having been in the hobby a while now, probably like many I started with lower end gear. That was partly because I didn't know the sound that could come from higher-end gear. I did't have opportunities to listen to that level gear, but several years back I took a more serious approach, reading "reviews", visiting a couple brick & mortars, and scanning many forums from which to base decisions to assemble a collection My current system, while not the truly high-end, does give me the sound I'm perfectly happy with! I'm pretty much done chasing "what's next"!

I've seen the prices rise on many pieces, but that seems to be the norm across my other hobbies as well. We are assembling a small group of "audiophiles" here in my area, but most all say they cannot or will not pay the current prices of upper tier equipment. The majority seem to focus more on vintage equipment and say they like the sound. Since this is a personal-choice hobby, that's fine!

I am not sure any across-the-board price reductions can be expected anytime soon, particularly on high-demand gear. To me some of the reasons for higher prices are artificial, I certainly have no choice but to either pay or pass! My thought is that you seek out the best deals you can find because they are indeed out there.
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There are shockingly good vintage gear available at reasonable to very reasonable prices , build and sonics are on par if not better than many new products today ..!

Granted some may need servicing to bring them up to par , but you are still looking at substantial more in outlay to better them at today’s prices..

Also in agreement about current entry level products which offer good performance and prices, really decent audio can be hand in the under 1K category ..!
 
Saw a report on the morning news this AM where a study said that 20% of Americans are willing to go into credit card debt for this years Holiday shopping season :rolleyes: As a believer of the '80/20' rule of life it doesn't surprise me that Americans can be that stupid .............
 
Mikado463 said:
Saw a report on the morning news this AM where a study said that 20% of Americans are willing to go into credit card debt for this years Holiday shopping season :rolleyes: As a believer of the '80/20' rule of life it doesn't surprise me that Americans can be that stupid .............
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Nothing surprises me any more. Americans really are that f!@#$% stupid.
 
I had a gentleman come into the store all excited to buy his first stereo. He was wanting to spend about $30-50k. His wife had recently died. When we got down to it, he told me he was going to fund it through a “reverse mortgage.” We talked and he had no clue what it REALLY meant. I told him, as a self proclaimed debt counselor for many friends over the past decades, I could not sell him the system. He needed to seek professional financial help.
 
Gulp............I remember my first stereo, 55 years ago, cost me less than $500 and that was alot of money to me back then :oops:
 
Mikado463 said:
Saw a report on the morning news this AM where a study said that 20% of Americans are willing to go into credit card debt for this years Holiday shopping season :rolleyes: As a believer of the '80/20' rule of life it doesn't surprise me that Americans can be that stupid .............
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Why do Americans spend so much these days? You could easily turn it around: 20% is extra money and 80% is the cosiness you make yourself. It is so easy: buy some luxury food and drinks a little bit on decorations, and maybe some activities (20%), and invite family and friends (80%). The most important thing these days: being together.
 
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