Blind comparisons of speakers, amps, and DACs...

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Blind listening/tests/comparisons are always frustrating as they break through the illusions we build up in this hobby. I have done it ad nauseam with friends and our systems over the decades. It is hardly ever an event that confirms anything but the opposite. Unless one makes drastic changes such as speakers/rooms, the rest are pretty difficult to nail down blind. Heck, even professional violin players are fooled by a cheap modern violin in a blind comparison to a coveted, multimillion dollar Stradivarius and they have professionally trained ears and talent. What chance does an average audiophile have? LOL...

Best to just assemble a system with whatever components bring listening joy and spend countless happy hours listening to favorite music rather than chasing some absolutes that are mostly our vivid imagination to begin with. Audible (auditory/echoic )memory only lasts 2-4 seconds. Scientific fact. After that brief moment, it is our imagination... Good luck swapping cables and trying to hear a difference.
 
I wouldn’t find it “fun” or “interesting.”
 
You are brave to suggest blind testing in an audiophile forum.
There are too many myths and misconceptions in high-end audio and many audiophiles are afraid to even consider blind testing afraid of what they may find out.
Fortunately, for those inclined to explore there are some websites/blogs where you can do blind listening on certain components for the listener to decide if they can hear a difference.
They test the effect of different components (like DACs) or purposely add jitter to the test songs for you to determine if you can actually tell a difference. Also, you can do blind listening on songs at different resolutions to see if you can tell which is which.
One such blog is called Archimago Musings. You can google it.
As Octopus indicated, the room and the speakers is where the big differences reside. You can definitely hear that.
 
TheOctopus said:
Blind listening/tests/comparisons are always frustrating as they break through the illusions we build up in this hobby. I have done it ad nauseam with friends and our systems over the decades. It is hardly ever an event that confirms anything but the opposite. Unless one makes drastic changes such as speakers/rooms, the rest are pretty difficult to nail down blind. Heck, even professional violin players are fooled by a cheap modern violin in a blind comparison to a coveted, multimillion dollar Stradivarius and they have professionally trained ears and talent. What chance does an average audiophile have? LOL...

Best to just assemble a system with whatever components bring listening joy and spend countless happy hours listening to favorite music rather than chasing some absolutes that are mostly our vivid imagination to begin with. Audible (auditory/echoic )memory only lasts 2-4 seconds. Scientific fact. After that brief moment, it is our imagination... Good luck swapping cables and trying to hear a difference.
Click to expand...

Event Memory , 2 seconds Huh , you must not be married ....!

Blind testing (abx) works, works very well if not done with prejudice, volume matching is very important in both sighted or unsighted compares ...!


Regards
 
a.wayne said:
Event Memory , 2 seconds Huh , you must not be married ....!

Blind testing (abx) works, works very well if not done with prejudice, volume matching is very important in both sighted or unsighted compares ...!


Regards
Click to expand...
Echoic memory has nothing to do with "events" but sound. If one makes an argument that they would recognize "the voice" of a loved one, sure, you can, there are many cues in a spoken word and the human voice. Of course everyone would recognize popular songs by Diana Krall instantly but I seriously doubt any audiophile would recognize Diana Krall if she called on the phone... A percentage of the population, nearly 4% in fact, cannot recognize voices of even loved ones. The memory fails them and the condition is called "phonagnosia".

But even our "event" memory is fallible. That is simply because the memory is not a bit for bit perfect information stored on a hard drive... Our memories are an "overlay", an abstract picture that gets created by the brain when the memory is pulled from storage. Many of the details can easily change within the construct of that abstract memory recreation.

Why any audiophile would think they can precisely recall the details of a complex recording and compare/contrast based on a memory that does not even last more than a few seconds is beyond me. Then the audiophiles go on to proclaim something "better" or "worse" without having a frame of reference what the original recording sounded like in the studio or what the instrument or a bunch of instruments within a recording should sound like without musical training and pitch perfect hearing is also beyond me. But I've stopped pondering such things and simply enjoy music. If another shiny box interests me for whatever reason, so be it, it is part of enjoying the hobby.
 
Here is an experiment. Take your favorite song, piece of music and play it back in your head without actually listening to it. See what your brain can pull up. Can you hear all the instruments in your head with accuracy and fidelity? Just like you would on your audio system....

No? Well, where is that memory and frame of reference then? How do you even know if it sounded the same or different and then decide it is better or worse before sharing your finding on that new tweak with the rest of the audiophile community? ;)
 
While on the subject of memory...

Are all of your memories real? - Daniel L. Schacter

Dig into the psychology of how memories are susceptible to false information and why we shouldn’t treat them as truth.

--

In a 1990’s study, participants recalled getting lost in a shopping mall as children. Some shared these memories in vivid detail, but there was one problem: none of these people had actually gotten lost in a mall. They produced these false memories after psychologists told them they’d gotten lost and parents confirmed it. So what’s going on? Daniel L. Schacter explores the fallibility of our memory.




 
stereogeek said:
The really kooky ones are at Audioholics and that other site that measures stuff but never says anything about how it sounds.
Click to expand...

You mean they don't like to talk about the 'chocolatey mids and the euphoric highs' !

Like any forum, one learns to separate those with an ounce of knowledge and those that don't really know the forest for the trees. Audiophiles are no exception !
 
TheOctopus said:
Echoic memory has nothing to do with "events" but sound. If one makes an argument that they would recognize "the voice" of a loved one, sure, you can, there are many cues in a spoken word and the human voice. Of course everyone would recognize popular songs by Diana Krall instantly but I seriously doubt any audiophile would recognize Diana Krall if she called on the phone... A percentage of the population, nearly 4% in fact, cannot recognize voices of even loved ones. The memory fails them and the condition is called "phonagnosia".

But even our "event" memory is fallible. That is simply because the memory is not a bit for bit perfect information stored on a hard drive... Our memories are an "overlay", an abstract picture that gets created by the brain when the memory is pulled from storage. Many of the details can easily change within the construct of that abstract memory recreation.

Why any audiophile would think they can precisely recall the details of a complex recording and compare/contrast based on a memory that does not even last more than a few seconds is beyond me. Then the audiophiles go on to proclaim something "better" or "worse" without having a frame of reference what the original recording sounded like in the studio or what the instrument or a bunch of instruments within a recording should sound like without musical training and pitch perfect hearing is also beyond me. But I've stopped pondering such things and simply enjoy music. If another shiny box interests me for whatever reason, so be it, it is part of enjoying the hobby.
Click to expand...

Too bad you don't quit posting things you have read that are all negative while you "simply enjoy the music" that you can't remember for more than a few seconds.
 
Mikado463 said:
Funny, I took Serge's post more as a 'here's the facts', again something many audiophiles can't accept
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Dave, that would be the logical way to take my post. Those are the facts. Our memories are far from perfect and sound memory is the worst of all. Plenty of scientific studies done. We struggle to remember faces of our loved ones after they are gone many years. Our memories are very abstract, often flawed and we are easily susceptible to false memories.

None of that should take away from the enjoyment of music and our hobby. The creative writing, AKA impressions/comparisons/reviews, I also believe the majority to be good willed as people really think they have heard a difference....

I am personally not convinced we can reliably tell a difference since we cannot recreate a song/music in our head from memory. To focus on specific sounds such as vocals or instruments within a song, once again, these memories are abstract and not detailed such as our consciousness would experience while listening to it through an audio system live. Once the few seconds are up, the details are gone. Next time you hear it, the "overlay" that is our memory of that song/sound, will match up with what we are hearing and you will recognize it as such but the new event may sound same or different in its details and I believe expectations have much to do with that part.

I believe all lion roars will register as lion roars but do all the lions sound the same??? We will perhaps never truly know. :)
 
mep said:
Too bad you don't quit posting things you have read that are all negative while you "simply enjoy the music" that you can't remember for more than a few seconds.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I had this wicked upbringing that allows me to face facts in life and deal with them. I see others struggle with that in life...
 
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