Atma-Shephere Class D Review

atmasphere said:
No, I didn't say that. I said something quite different!

But if someone submits a bad product, the thing to do if the product isn't up to snuff is to not talk about it.

A few decades ago a speaker manufacturer brought a set of speakers for us to audition. They were a multiple driver crossover-less design. They didn't play bass, they really couldn't do the highs and the midrange was bad too. I was as polite as I could and simply told the designer we're weren't interested. The speaker was terrible but he was a nice guy and probably a bit over-eager. He submitted the same speaker to the Listener (Art Dudley's magazine). It got a terrible review and is one of the few bad reviews I've seen that did appear to be honest. Those speakers were never heard of again after that. I suspect it was a painful experience for the designer. Whatever time and money into the product suddenly got the big flush.

I've often wondered what would have happened if that designer had continued to refine his work; if he would have ever been able to make something that cut the mustard. But he got shut down and that was the end of it.

If nothing ever appeared in print it might have been different. Crossover-less speakers are a lot more common now due to the resurgence of SETs. He was well ahead of that curve. It could have been very interesting.
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Like Brian, having read your post, I'm shaking my head ! Covering for something 'bad' is total nonsense. Constructive criticism is healthy and if someone can't handle it then they simply don't belong in the biz !!

In the words of Jack Nicholson............."You can't handle the truth" !!
 
Shadowfax said:
"But if someone submits a bad product, the thing to do if the product isn't up to snuff is to not talk about it."

Maybe I am missing your point, but if no lousy product ever got a bad review, wouldn't that lead to people being duped into buying said lousy product because there are No Negative Reviews of the product? I think Bad reviews if accurate are good for the consumer and a heads up for the MFG to do a better job. This does not just apply to Audio Gear. If a product is obviously and demonstratably flawed, why would we not want to inform others?
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No, if never mentioned the product won't get traction. Products gain traction thru word of mouth; reviews simply amplify on that. By the time a product is sent to a reviewer, its likely seen a lot of feedback from owners already. But in the case of the speaker manufacturer I mentioned I don't think that happened. A bit of common sense on the part of the manufacturer is required to stay in business.
Mikado463 said:
Like Brian, having read your post, I'm shaking my head ! Covering for something 'bad' is total nonsense. Constructive criticism is healthy and if someone can't handle it then they simply don't belong in the biz !!

In the words of Jack Nicholson............."You can't handle the truth" !!
Click to expand...
The idea it not to 'cover for something bad'. No-one is suggesting that- I'm certainly not. Put another way, if a reviewer sends a product back and tells the manufacturer that its not up to snuff so its not getting reviewed, that isn't 'covering for something bad'. Its giving much needed feedback. I agree with the rest of what you've said. By the time we submitted products for review (after being asked multiple times) we had a lot of feedback and so knew what our stuff did and what it didn't. IMO that's common sense for any manufacturer to get feedback from customers first. And yes, you have to do that by taking products to dealers for demo, shipping products for demo and the like to get those sales.

I think a lot of people don't really realize how much work goes into getting a business off the ground.
 
atmasphere said:
No, if never mentioned the product won't get traction. Products gain traction thru word of mouth; reviews simply amplify on that. By the time a product is sent to a reviewer, its likely seen a lot of feedback from owners already. But in the case of the speaker manufacturer I mentioned I don't think that happened. A bit of common sense on the part of the manufacturer is required to stay in business.

The idea it not to 'cover for something bad'. No-one is suggesting that- I'm certainly not. Put another way, if a reviewer sends a product back and tells the manufacturer that its not up to snuff so its not getting reviewed, that isn't 'covering for something bad'. Its giving much needed feedback. I agree with the rest of what you've said. By the time we submitted products for review (after being asked multiple times) we had a lot of feedback and so knew what our stuff did and what it didn't. IMO that's common sense for any manufacturer to get feedback from customers first. And yes, you have to do that by taking products to dealers for demo, shipping products for demo and the like to get those sales.

I think a lot of people don't really realize how much work goes into getting a business off the ground.
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I get your point and understand but .............. in the case of 'speakers' , how could they be determined to be 'not up to snuff' without doing both an objective and subjective review ?
 
I know a reviewer and industry consultant. He was sent a digital product from a name you'd all recognize. He chose to send it back with feedback opposed to reviewing it. He says it wasn't thought out well at all. I'm not sure if any of his changes were implemented but I'm pretty sure the product is available. I think personally if the company had an inventory and planned to launch anyway the review should have been done. I realize the damage that would cause as well. I remember the fallout from Fremer giving a not so hot review of the Bricasti amplifiers. Stereophile gave the amps to another reviewer for a follow-up. I remember hearing those amps at Axpona and thinking they sounded great but I didn't listen as long as a reviewer would obviously.

There was another product given a bad review by Harry Pearson back in the day that was a big setback. I forgot what it was. The product never recovered from that. It's a tough call. I feel in the end though that honesty is the best policy despite the fallout but on the other hand consumers have to realize that reviewers are just people and we all hear differently. We all have to do our best to try the product ourselves.

There used to be a big box store called Ultimate Electronics. Surprisingly they had Krell at one time. I was told the reason they had the line in the beginning Dan D'agostino used to drive to stores with the Krell amps in his trunk to show dealers and see if they'd pick up the line. Ultimate was one who did and Dan remained loyal to that store up until a point. When the store was in my area they only had like the KAV stuff and HT. That eventually disappeared but I'm not sure why.
 
Mikado463 said:
I get your point and understand but .............. in the case of 'speakers' , how could they be determined to be 'not up to snuff' without doing both an objective and subjective review ?
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In case its not obvious, as audiophiles we feel we've been lied to for so long by the industry as a whole that we don't think about it any more. We don't accept spec sheets, measurements, reviews, dealer's commendations; if their lips are moving they are lying...

That's why we have to take the gear home and see for ourselves.

So we are all doing reviews.

In the case of the speaker in question the manufacturer set them up at our shop and we played them. It happens I have LPs and CDs I recorded so I know exactly how they are supposed to sound. What I heard was disappointing.

IOW to answer your question simply: by listening to them and perhaps also measuring them.
 
atmasphere said:
In case its not obvious, as audiophiles we feel we've been lied to for so long by the industry as a whole that we don't think about it any more. We don't accept spec sheets, measurements, reviews, dealer's commendations; if their lips are moving they are lying...

That's why we have to take the gear home and see for ourselves.

So we are all doing reviews.

In the case of the speaker in question the manufacturer set them up at our shop and we played them. It happens I have LPs and CDs I recorded so I know exactly how they are supposed to sound. What I heard was disappointing.

IOW to answer your question simply: by listening to them and perhaps also measuring them.
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Ok and to your point and in the case of 'said speakers' your subjective review proved that they were indeed 'not up to snuff' without further objective measurements, I get it.

As for your comment about industry lies, as an example it's been know for years that Klipsch exaggerates with regards to their specs. Myself, any review only written 'subjectively' I take with a grain of salt !
 
Mikado463 said:
Myself, any review only written 'subjectively' I take with a grain of salt !
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That's fine!

The issue here isn't so much that every review must be positive and no negative review can ever be entertained, its about the fact that quite often there is an unseen agenda around negative reviews, whereas the positive reviews are there to promote the product from the manufacturer's point of view and to produce content from the publisher's point of view; that's not an unseen agenda.
 
atmasphere said:
In case its not obvious, as audiophiles we feel we've been lied to for so long by the industry as a whole that we don't think about it any more. We don't accept spec sheets, measurements, reviews, dealer's commendations; if their lips are moving they are lying...

That's why we have to take the gear home and see for ourselves.

So we are all doing reviews.

In the case of the speaker in question the manufacturer set them up at our shop and we played them. It happens I have LPs and CDs I recorded so I know exactly how they are supposed to sound. What I heard was disappointing.

IOW to answer your question simply: by listening to them and perhaps also measuring them.
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Measurements tells you everything, listening only tells which to like , they are not mutually exclusive ..!

:)
 
a.wayne said:
Measurements tells you everything, listening only tells which to like , they are not mutually exclusive ..!

:)
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Exactly. I quote Daniel von Recklinghausen a lot: "If it measures good but sounds bad, its bad. If it measures bad but sounds good, you measured the wrong thing."

These days that's even more true than it was 55 years ago or so when he said that. Interestingly, I found a comment from Norman Crowhurst made in the 1950s where he was advocating for a weighting system to be applied to the various harmonics generated by any amp; he was lamenting the fact that no such system was adopted. Decades later Geddes came up with the 'Geddes Metric' which was the same thing.
 
Mr Peabody said:
I know a reviewer and industry consultant. He was sent a digital product from a name you'd all recognize. He chose to send it back with feedback opposed to reviewing it. He says it wasn't thought out well at all. I'm not sure if any of his changes were implemented but I'm pretty sure the product is available. I think personally if the company had an inventory and planned to launch anyway the review should have been done. I realize the damage that would cause as well. I remember the fallout from Fremer giving a not so hot review of the Bricasti amplifiers. Stereophile gave the amps to another reviewer for a follow-up. I remember hearing those amps at Axpona and thinking they sounded great but I didn't listen as long as a reviewer would obviously.

There was another product given a bad review by Harry Pearson back in the day that was a big setback. I forgot what it was. The product never recovered from that. It's a tough call. I feel in the end though that honesty is the best policy despite the fallout but on the other hand consumers have to realize that reviewers are just people and we all hear differently. We all have to do our best to try the product ourselves.

There used to be a big box store called Ultimate Electronics. Surprisingly they had Krell at one time. I was told the reason they had the line in the beginning Dan D'agostino used to drive to stores with the Krell amps in his trunk to show dealers and see if they'd pick up the line. Ultimate was one who did and Dan remained loyal to that store up until a point. When the store was in my area they only had like the KAV stuff and HT. That eventually disappeared but I'm not sure why.
Click to expand...
Harry was , errr , difficult and rarely fair IMO, you had to pay the club fees to partake …

Before the internet , which now allow new companies to bypass the usual gate keepers so to speak , you had to hit the street to sell products, banging on doors was common, between CES and running ads in the back of magazines..!

Glad to see them ( gate keepers) go really, a bad or good review today carries very little weight as before compared to the big reach of Internet forums and direct customer feedback …!

As Ralph is currently proving with direct damage control ..

:)


Regards
 
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a.wayne said:
Harry was , errr , difficult and rarely fair IMO, you had to pay the club fees to partake …

Before the internet , which now allow new companies to bypass the usual gate keepers so to speak , you had to hit the street to sell products, banging on doors was common, between CES and running ads in the back of magazines..!

Glad to see them ( gate keepers) go really, a bad or good review today carries very little weight as before compared to the big reach of Internet forums and direct customer feedback …!

As Ralph is currently proving with direct damage control ..

:)


Regards
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Great topic for a thread. The dynamics have completely changed. Elliot’s post the other day was enlightening to say the least. I feel his pain and sincerely sympathize.

10 years ago I couldn’t go a day without hearing “Valin said”, “Fremer said”, etc. Have not seriously heard those names in at least 4 years. Not even once.

Like it or lump it, but today it’s “Jay says”, “Jason says”, “the Greek Audio God says.”. The YouTuber guys dominate. It’s not even close. I sure do miss the OG YouTuber. At least you knew where you stood and what it cost.

Bark and whine all you want about BS “qualifications”. This is the reality today. If I’m buying a car, a new TV or figuring out how to program this damn new garage door opener, I turn to YouTube.

My question is this: how does Adrienne (Canadian dealer) still keep his lines while trashing them on his channel? I don’t get it. How bad is the market in Canada that they tolerate this? It sure is a bizarre world.
 
Hahaha ,

Yes I have seen a few of his “reviews” but is he actually selling product , looks not.
His ex employee is doing a better job at promoting new products than he is …

Regards
 
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