Active Speakers - would you consider?

[nicoludio]

I think what’s missing from this discussion is several advantages:

1. Keeping the signal in the digital domain.
2. Eliminating a traditional crossover.
3. DSP
4. Active vs Wireless. Big difference. Wireless creates a whole new set of challenges. B&W’s proprietary new technology eliminates those challenges.

One more advantage is the direct coupling between the amplifier and the speaker - no passive crossover components in the way.

1. can be a disadvantage. There has to be D2A before amplification. Providing one high end D2A for each frequency channel can be expensive.

2. analog input active speakers also eliminate the traditional crossover. The frequency is split at the low level signal stage before amplification.

3. DSP can be achieved at the DAC, such as the Weiss DAC502.

4. Wireless is limited to 24/96, for now. Digital input active speakers, afaik, only accept up to 24/192 and PCM only. DSD signals have to be converted to PCM for DSP and digital crossover purposes.

Downsides?

1. For the analog lovers, A2D2A is rarely ideal.
2. You can’t “flavor” with an amp (tube, a/b, a, etc)
3. You can’t “flavor” with a preamp, DAC or even cabling

With an analog input active speaker (instead of a digital input active speaker), one can “flavour” by the choice of DAC / preamps and other sources.

Even with digital input speakers, depending on the system, one can still “flavour” with the digital server/source/CD or SACD transport & digital cables - ethernet / SPDIF or AES / USB.

With the Linkwitz config you can do all 3. Its an ASP, not DSP. Rare yes, but obviously possible. Nothing stopping others from doing so...other than Siegfried's(RIP) rarefied level of skills.

+1

 

[steve59]

Meridian sells Special Edition kits that have everything but the shiny rings that the newest speakers have, but they're pricey, really pricey and it took me some time ti find a dealer to sell me a pair I could afford.
I've noticed lately when reselling a pair of speakers that for whatever reason didn't make the cut, when the buyers first come 0ver to listen they seem a bit let down, even confused but after a half hour or so everybodys ears adjust and the speakers sell. go figure

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I do think that as expectations increase for ultimate real in-room lower octave performance with top level speakers, that the active approach has huge advantages. active makes it much more likely to get room-speaker hookup and smooth lower octaves. and it allows for amplifier choice for the passive part of the speaker to have much greater latitude.....as it's not being called on to do as much.

my last 3 sets of speakers (since 2005) are/were active in the lower octaves.....passive on top.

which is a completely separate topic than this thread but only wanted to point out that we should use the best possible tools to find musical reproduction bliss, and active bass is one of those tools.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Meridian sells Special Edition kits that have everything but the shiny rings that the newest speakers have, but they're pricey, really pricey and it took me some time ti find a dealer to sell me a pair I could afford.

So the upgrade kits are not sold direct, but only through dealers?
And again, you did the actual swapping yourself?

Regardless, as I said, nothing stopping "user" upgrades with active. Other than user.

 

[Howiebrou]

I used to own the Meridian DSP 8000s and they were excellent nd very convenient. All you need is some Cat 5/6/7 cable to reach your speakers. I still have the DSP 5200SEs and 3100. Many of the high end speakers are active or partially active now like Gryphon, Marten etc. My Avantgarde Primos were half active too.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

my last 3 sets of speakers (since 2005) are/were active in the lower octaves

Which then begs the oft raised question in "why not active", how many amp failures did you have?
Who here owns a passive sub? Subs have been active for decades. They represent a "worst case" scenario of pressure/vibration/heat stresses for amp reliability. Yet...I have a 20(?) yr old Pinnacle Baby Boomer sub, not exactly uber high end, inexpensive most likely made in China et al amp, that still works flawlessly.
Ditto for my 2004 Rythmik servo amps, now 15yrs old. Works perfect. Old Behringer studio monitor too.
I'm not saying it isn't a factor, but I think the whole "reliability" negative is largely a red herring.

I do think that as expectations increase for ultimate real in-room lower octave performance with top level speakers, that the active approach has huge advantages. active makes it much more likely to get room-speaker hookup and smooth lower octaves. and it allows for amplifier choice for the passive part of the speaker to have much greater latitude.....as it's not being called on to do as much.

And that is the audiophile view of active being same as passive configuration/design speaker but with onboard or direct amplification/EQ.
Active allows far more than that. It allows bass pattern control, ala the Kii, D&D etc speakers with cardioid bass. I've been doing that for over a decade....and more. I had an active system that had a sealed woofer and a dipole woofer in the same cabinet. The sealed went from 20-200, the dipole from 40-400. The overlap region was cardioid. But you could "slide" the crossover between them up or down. So if you wanted box bass "punch" and "slam", you raise the sealed lowpass and the dipole highpass to 80-100hz. Slam all you want. If you wanted the higher clarity, pitch and definition of the dipole bass (6db less reverberate power in room), you slide the XO down to 40.
No passive system extant can do anything like that. And that's just bass.
Above that you can go cardioid (again like Kii/D&D et al) and place the speaker much closer to front wall without detrimental effects..like a monopole or dipole passive. Or you can go full nuts and include totally separate rear indirect diffuse/decorrelated radiation drivers to control the size of the soundstage (real, no imagination required). All at the touch of a button.
Again, either impractical...or impossible to do passive.
Of course, folks can prefer whatever they want. YMMV.

cheers,

AJ

 

[puroagave]

...Would active speakers be something you would consider? If no, why?

I did and presently own and use Kii threes as 'daily drivers.' Actives done right are superb and by my way of thinking the way forward for advancing the SOTA.

IMO Guttenberg put proverbial foot in mouth in one of his vlogs re actives (see his comment section) and then followed up with a 2nd vid to explain what he was trying to say the first time but only dug a deeper hole for himself (IMO). It goes to show that even seasoned reviewers have a myopic view of speaker design and system integration. His bias was more like downright prejudice.

 

[kzhtoo]

Yes, I’d buy it today if Magico made their A1s active.

 

[joeinid]

Ha! Well said. I know it’s a tall order but still possible. As a second system, absolutely especially with some well implemented DSP. I do love the idea but like the Devialet before, giving up my mix ‘n match nature, I’d have to settle down some more.

TBH, since my AG Duo XD arrived, I’ve been a lot better

Joe, given the numbers of systems I've seen you go through, that speaker with your style of sound would have to be called "The Chameleon".

cheers,

AJ

 

[Everest Audio]

There's something to be said about more traditional actives like ATC. Feed them analogue via XLR and then they won't be dated by an internal DAC, etc.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

 

[TheOctopus]

I gave Dynaudio active speakers a listen last year. Don't recall the exact model but they were the floorstanding models. Not bad actually. I wouldn't say it was in any way superior to a similar speaker among their passive model speakers would be with quality gear driving them but not far off either!

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I did and presently own and use Kii threes as 'daily drivers.' Actives done right are superb and by my way of thinking the way forward for advancing the SOTA.

I just noticed your sig. Interesting mix! See, "analog" and "digital" can peacefully coexist.
What do you think of the cardioid bass in room vs the typical box stuff you may have used before? Any temptation for the bass module, or is bottom good enough?

IMO Guttenberg put proverbial foot in mouth

Seems like a nice fellow, but his technical illiteracy is unambiguous. Even funnier is the blissful unawareness and the equally so cheering section.
Ah well.:happy:

cheers,

AJ

 

[puroagave]

I just noticed your sig. Interesting mix! See, "analog" and "digital" can peacefully coexist.
What do you think of the cardioid bass in room vs the typical box stuff you may have used before? Any temptation for the bass module, or is bottom good enough?


Seems like a nice fellow, but his technical illiteracy is unambiguous. Even funnier is the blissful unawareness and the equally so cheering section.
Ah well.:happy:

cheers,

AJ

Even Ethan Winer jumped into the fray to take his shot at SG, I never thought 'd see the day I'd agree with Ethan on anything :disbelief:.

As for the analog/digital mash-up it gets better... horror of horrors, class d amps are involved regardless, the Kii convey minute difference in digital sources as well as anything in my experience. with analog sources, its onboard ADC runs on its own DSP that Bruno Putzeys wrote, it's not a multiple of 44.1 or 48khz and doesn't use an off the shelf SRC chip. Nothing is off the shelf or parts bin engineered with this speaker, it's a clean sheet design through and through.

I took a leap of faith not knowing exactly how my LP playback would work out. very, very well as it turns out. the resolution on its 'analog' inputs is as transparent to the source as one would expect at this level; I don't hear anything 'missing' from recordings im intimately familiar with. differences in SQ between phono stages, cartridges, etc are not much different or less revealing than an all-analog throughput. changes in VTA/SRA are just as coherent and easy to discern. I'm presently in a smaller listening room than I'm used to with the Kiis close to the front wall about 6-8" away, something I don't normally do. The bass response, reach and tightness is phenomenal. The Kiis are head and shoulders above and way beyond any passive compact speaker I've ever owned. There are user defined contour settings for the cardioid response based on things like proximity to room boundaries. its far from a gimmick and its easily heard--as you already know. In practice cardioid bass eliminates bloat and floor bounce an added benefit are sharpened image outlines, improved depth etc. Soundstaging freaks will love this speaker. I don't see myself adding the BXT modules unless I move back in to a larger space. From a mid-field listening position I can get life-like SPL levels w/o strain or audible compression, what stops me from finding its limits is my wish to preserve the hearing I have left.

 

[UltraFast69]

I would look at what is available at the time assuming I was going to replace what I have.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[AJ Soundfield]

As for the analog/digital mash-up it gets better... horror of horrors, class d amps are involved

Hah, yes, I know. But of course, just to be 100% clear to our readership, Class "D" does not stand for "Digital". It just happened to come after Class C. It's a very common misconception among audiophiles. It's 100% analog.
Yes, I have no irrational belief/fear of well engineered Class D. Understanding electro-acoustics helps. As a matter of fact I "field tested" that very concept on literally hundreds of golden eared audiophiles. They key was they had no idea they were being tested. Which means there could be no "stress" excuse and "the test conditions 'masked' my normal elite hearing" excuse, etc, etc.
Turns out well engineered Class D is no different from well engineered A or AB. Just a heck of a lot greener. Bruno's stuff is particularly well engineered. Tis why I use also.

I took a leap of faith not knowing exactly how my LP playback would work out. very, very well as it turns out. the resolution on its 'analog' inputs is as transparent to the source as one would expect at this level; I don't hear anything 'missing' from recordings im intimately familiar with. differences in SQ between phono stages, cartridges, etc are not much different or less revealing than an all-analog throughput. changes in VTA/SRA are just as coherent and easy to discern. I'm presently in a smaller listening room than I'm used to with the Kiis close to the front wall about 6-8" away, something I don't normally do. The bass response, reach and tightness is phenomenal. The Kiis are head and shoulders above and way beyond any passive compact speaker I've ever owned. There are user defined contour settings for the cardioid response based on things like proximity to room boundaries. its far from a gimmick and its easily heard--as you already know. In practice cardioid bass eliminates bloat and floor bounce an added benefit are sharpened image outlines, improved depth etc. Soundstaging freaks will love this speaker. I don't see myself adding the BXT modules unless I move back in to a larger space. From a mid-field listening position I can get life-like SPL levels w/o strain or audible compression, what stops me from finding its limits is my wish to preserve the hearing I have left.

Very cool. Yes, the only thing that comes out of the speakers, is analog. As long as that sounds like what you are hearing, all else prior is irrelevant. No way you could get away with that type sound that close to the front wall with "traditional" designs. I agree that only a larger space/highish spl requirements might mandate the bass modules.
Have not heard them myself, but hope to in the future. Should sound familiar.
Now all you need is a nice, warm glowing tube preamp!

cheers,

AJ

 

[a.wayne]

Wait , what ! Class D is no different from Class A , AB , it’s just greener ...


Green is my least favorite color .... !



Regards

 

[a.wayne]

A well engineered (vs fashion design) active will beat passive in the soundwaves>ears domain. Demonstrably so in physical reality/trust ears/just listen scenario. Out in the wild, all possibilities exist.


That's a red herring. No law dictating internal amps. Exhibit A: Linkwitz speakers. Others, including any of mine also.


That of course, would be the dilemma, since "best" exists only in the mind of the audiophile, not physical reality, is 50 different things to 40 different audiophiles, depending on the minute of the day, direction of the wind, poll numbers, etc, etc....and subject to change, to put it mildly.
Possible with the Linkwitz configuration type scenario, but for optimal performance, would keep the original engineer/designer busy throughout the year. Or day.

cheers,

AJ

Every full active speakers i have ever heard sounded like HiFi , never real , alive, lifelike , et al , always electrical, HiFi sounding, i kinda left wanting that HiFi sound back in the 70’s, IMO best is hybrid active/ passive , the critical midband-tweeter section is best handled by a good passive xover, active in the bass due to inductor size and losses associated with..


Still a well designed full passive setup speaks with a unity of voicing not matched electrically by a full active /passive setup ..


Regards

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Wait , what ! Class D is no different from Class A , AB

Read a bit slower lest you see what's not there Mr Wayne.
Their ears couldn't tell any difference. When they didn't know which was being heard.
Not saying there is none when they know and all the psychogenic maladies flourish. Comprende?
Actually there was switching where everyone heard a difference. even when there was no switch. ;-)
My Youtube offer stands as always. Let me know when you are ready for fame

 

[a.wayne]

Lol ,

Automatic revoke of audiophile license if one cant hear the difference with ClassD , BTW my offer still stands, Bring your class D , I will provide speakers and class A amp ..

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I like when you get all science/technical with us Mr Wayne ;-)

the critical midband-tweeter section is best handled by a good passive xover

Really? How do you account for the TS parameters of the drivers varying with signal level? What values do you use for your filter network, based on what signal level? Large or small? They can't be the same, so tell us how your fixed filter values account for varying TS.
And what about inductance modulation of your moving coil speaker depending on displacement in the gap?
What about interchannel precision for better imaging properties, can you post some measurements of your passive designs that show better than active interchannel precision?
Btw, this is all purely objective, so looking forward lots of data, in lieu of lots of "words". Thanks!

Still a well designed full passive setup speaks with a unity of voicing not matched electrically by a full active /passive setup ..

Terrific, nothing subjective there at all, a purely objective claim. Please present your electrical measurements supporting this rather extraordinary claim Mr Wayne.
Can we presume they are present in your commercial designs that all can hear and judge for themselves?

cheers,

AJ