Acoustic Room Treatments vs DSP

[Purité Audio]

Totally agree. I dont think that direction is half baked at all and when done right, may blow the mic route away in terms of absolute results.
I think that Ilusonic uses some of the same thinking, even though it is mic based.

How could crawling around with a tape measure possibly be preferable or lead to a better result?
It is half baked, and no amount of marketing can disguise that, Illusonic is microphone based, taking measurements of the listening position but also surrounding the listening position, Illusonic have their own software ,so you can see exactly what is happening.
Kei.

 

[wisnon]

Keith, I have been to Illusonic labs in Lausanne and know Christof very well.

Tell me, a software that can design speakers from scratch, match amps perfectly to drivers and cabinet and X-over networks and accepts up to 44,00 room parameters sounds half baked to you?
They computer model your room in 3D and do the necessary compensations. These are not just EQ either as Leaonardo deal with the time domain.
Also, you never heard of laser pointer measurment devices?

Goldmund philosophy on TIME distortion… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjF2O9lbddg

Marketing? i heard the Anattas and was blown away and lamented at the outrageous price. I know that the future is already here, but clearly far outside the realm of my pocket!

I await the Kii which will sell for far more real world pricing.

 

[Purité Audio]

Keith, I have been to Illusonic labs in Lausanne and know Christof very well.

Tell me, a software that can design speakers from scratch, match amps perfectly to drivers and cabinet and X-over networks and accepts up to 44,00 room parameters sounds half baked to you? Also, you never heard of laser pointer measurment devices?

Marketing? i heard the Anattas and was blown away and lamented at the outrageous price. I know that the future is already here, but clearly far outside the realm of my pocket!

I await the Kii which will sell for far more real world pricing.

A $10 dollar MiniDSP plug in, will create your DSP crossovers and accurately EQ your room—
with the use of a microphone!
Keith.

 

[Alpinist]

Hi Ken,

You can implement the dsp via your mac via jriver for example. Basically think of it that when you play an album from the library, the music is corrected in the digital domain before transmission to your dac via USB or whatever route. In addition to this route, one might decide to go for one of the purpose built "box" solutions (such as Trinnov etc) - for the latter you typically insert into the chain post preamp (or bin off your pre as some of these boxes do volume control also).

I would personally hang fire on the box solution due to the financial outlay compared to downloading software. That way you can dip your toes into the world of dsp without investing too much.

Hope this helps as a very watered down introduction.

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your post. I really like this option because I want to make these adjustments in the digital domain before the DAC. Once the music is converted to analog, I really don't want anything extra in the signal chain. Can any of these box solution be placed in the signal chain before the DAC or are they all after the DAC?

Best,
Ken

 

[CPP]

Hans,

Golmund Proteus does similar to Devialet SANM for the speakers and does the RCB with room dimensions. As it can work with up to 44,000 parameters, the more accurate the measurements you throw into it, the better will be the output. The Leonardo component of Proteus somehow deals with the time domain.

I have no idea behind the details of how all this works...

Norman no doubt it works but there is a BIG catch, it has to be loaded in one of Goldmunds pre-amps like the Mimesis 16, 16HD or 32 or the Metis 10 and also you need a Goldmund amp.

 

[Mike]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your post. I really like this option because I want to make these adjustments in the digital domain before the DAC. Once the music is converted to analog, I really don't want anything extra in the signal chain. Can any of these box solution be placed in the signal chain before the DAC or are they all after the DAC?

Best,
Ken

Ken - the challenge with this approach for me, would be how to deal with vinyl/R2R.

I like a product like this:

DEQX High Definition Audio

Output from Preamp into the DEQX PreMate+ and then from PreMate+ into amps.

 

[wisnon]

Norman no doubt it works but there is a BIG catch, it has to be loaded in one of Goldmunds pre-amps like the Mimesis 16, 16HD or 32 or the Metis 10 and also you need a Goldmund amp.

Yes, agreed Chris, BUT we are talking about their active speakers, so the amps and Dacs are already IN the speakers (which are SaM-ed by definition). The speakers can work off a computer with wifi dongle, but I imgines that Proteus DRC needs the Mimesis Hub.
The whole thing wont be cheap, as Goldmund is priced way up there.

 

[CPP]

Yes, agreed Chris, BUT we are talking about their active speakers, so the amps and Dacs are already IN the speakers (which are SaM-ed by definition). The speakers can work off a computer with wifi dongle, but I imgines that Proteus DRC needs the Mimesis Hub.
The whole thing wont be cheap, as Goldmund is priced way up there.

No doubt you can use your own speakers but then again you have to buy their electronics for it to be effective. And $$$ well we know how costly Goldmund is. That little Dirac software package and a quality mic (calibrated) is looking cheaper all the time.

 

[Audiophile bill]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your post. I really like this option because I want to make these adjustments in the digital domain before the DAC. Once the music is converted to analog, I really don't want anything extra in the signal chain. Can any of these box solution be placed in the signal chain before the DAC or are they all after the DAC?

Best,
Ken

Hi Ken,

Many of the box things can indeed be passed a digital signal and output a corrected digital signal for DA conversion.

 

[Audiophile bill]

Ken - the challenge with this approach for me, would be how to deal with vinyl/R2R.

I like a product like this:

DEQX High Definition Audio

Output from Preamp into the DEQX PreMate+ and then from PreMate+ into amps.

Hi Mike,

Whilst not as simple as the box you suggest above, you can integrate your analogue sources into the approach that I recommend by using an off board AD converter and from there to your PC for room correction.

I think for out and out convenience and simplicity, the box solution makes a good deal of sense. For out and out performance and value, the PC method should win - the reason for this IMHO is that the AD converter spec'd in these products will never compete with the sota dedicated AD converters and then the processing power will never trump a custom built audio pc with all the trimmings. Would be interested in hearing from any pros in recording and what they do.

 

[bonzo]

Boxes can be put before or after the preamp. You put digital in into a box, and then send to pre, or put a TT into the pre, then the pre into the Room Correction box, which then goes into the power amp.

I have heard a top end Linn TT with the Trinnov, and Marty, whose room is usually rated amongst the top ones in the US (certainly the best I have been in by far), puts his Goldmund Studio into his VTL pre, which then goes into his modded TacT, that then goes into his Spectral. Like with all cases hifi, one should not assume this won't work without actually trying it out.

 

[Alpinist]

Ken - the challenge with this approach for me, would be how to deal with vinyl/R2R.

I like a product like this:

DEQX High Definition Audio

Output from Preamp into the DEQX PreMate+ and then from PreMate+ into amps.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your response. The DEQX PreMate+ looks like a terrific high-end solution for those with vinyl. Since I'm a digital only guy, if I go the DSP route, it would probably be through computer software or a box solution that goes before the DAC.

Best,
Ken

 

[bonzo]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your response. The DEQX PreMate+ looks like a terrific high-end solution for those with vinyl. Since I'm a digital only guy, if I go the DSP route, it would probably be through computer software or a box solution that goes before the DAC.

Best,
Ken

If it's digital only, best to buy Dirac, Acourate, or Audiolense. The latter two are more complex, the first one is easier. I heard that Audiolense is the best from those who have used all three, but I am thinking of downloading Acourate to my CAPS like PC, because the designer lives in Europe and one day I can just fly him over to tweak my stuff up. That day is far off though, since I have to get my sh*t together before.

 

[wisnon]

No doubt you can use your own speakers but then again you have to buy their electronics for it to be effective. And $$$ well we know how costly Goldmund is. That little Dirac software package and a quality mic (calibrated) is looking cheaper all the time.

No doubt Dirac is far cheaper, but Dirac does not give you SAMification.

You could get Devialet electronics with an already SAMed speaker and then run Dirac as a far more cost effective solution...or wait for the Kii 3!

Does Dirac adjust for the time domain? Kii does and Goldmund is obsessed withe the Time domain. See my youtube link in this thread. Like Frank Muller watches, i think they consider themselves the "master of time". LoL

 

[Alpinist]

No doubt Dirac is far cheaper, but Dirac does not give you SAMification.

You could get Devialet electronics with an already SAMed speaker and then run Dirac as a far more cost effective solution...or wait for the Kii 3!

Does Dirac adjust for the time domain? Kii does and Goldmund is obsessed withe the Time domain. See my youtube link in this thread. Like Frank Muller watches, i think they consider themselves the "master of time". LoL

Hi Norman and Bonzo,

If I went for a digital only box that goes in front of the DAC, I would like one that utilizes microphone room equalization. Is there such a beast out there?

Best,
Ken

 

[bonzo]

Hi Norman and Bonzo,

If I went for a digital only box that goes in front of the DAC, I would like one that utilizes microphone room equalization. Is there such a beast out there?

Best,
Ken

Ken, contact Michael (dallasjustice) on WBF. He went through a big learning and discovery process over the last couple of years on Dirac, Acourate and Audiolense using a PC and dac. Nyall Mellor, who is a consultant, also can help.

 

[asiufy]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your response. The DEQX PreMate+ looks like a terrific high-end solution for those with vinyl. Since I'm a digital only guy, if I go the DSP route, it would probably be through computer software or a box solution that goes before the DAC.

Best,
Ken

Hi Ken,

We just picked up DEQX as a line, and did our first installation, with incredible results, so I can tell you a little bit about it.
It works as a DAC and a preamp in your system. If you're digital only, you can use the DEQX by itself, or still have the option of using an external DAC.
Here's a page that explains it better:

DEQX High Definition Audio

The cool thing is that you can have a DEQX tech do the first setup for you, and walk you through the process of speaker calibration and then room compensation/adjustment. From them on, you can tweak to your heart's desire

Of course, for analog/vinyl, you'll have to go through an A/D stage, built-in on the DEQX.

Hope this helps

 

[wisnon]

Hi Norman and Bonzo,

If I went for a digital only box that goes in front of the DAC, I would like one that utilizes microphone room equalization. Is there such a beast out there?

Best,
Ken

AFAIK, the box approach will always introduce a ADC and DAC stage, so if you have a reference Dac, it will be contrained by this. Software approach is the only way to circumvent this.

Dallas Justice used to tout Dirac, but i think he moved on to Akourate. He is always changng though, so hard to keep up with him. LoL

DSPeaker will release a bigger all singing, all dancing version of the Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core very soon...a matter of weeks, IIRC.
Edit:
DSPeakers US Distributor Tim Ryan of SIMPLIFI Audio will show the new DSPeaker X4 room correction 4 channel preamp/DAC. This new $3500.00 processor is a step up over the Class A rated $1,200.00 DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 with 24.192K processing, DSD playback, larger internal power supply, more inputs and exceptional new patented headphone circuitry. The X4 will also feature a NEW patent pending groundbreaking automatic sub-woofer integration technology. The X4 will add $2000.00 to the show system price when it ships in the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] quarter.

 

[bonzo]

He moved from Acourate to Audiolense. I wouldn't worry about putting the dac before or after. I have put a Trinnov after the preamp, with Lampi Big 7 going into the preamp, and compared it with Linn top level TT and Linn streamer. All 3 retained their character through Trinnov and I got different sounds. The Lampi was great. And I already stated Marty's example, he has an EMM Dac 2x and Goldmund Studio.

I will use Acourate simply because the designer lives in Europe, so I can fly him over one day. if you have a Trinnov or DeqX specialist near you, use that. Especially if you are a newbie

 

[wisnon]

Bonzo, you will agree that the software approach will be more "purist" though, if you want to retain as much of your favourite Dac as possible.

The new DSperker looks verty interesting.
The AM 2.0 was very good for bass issues and of course comes with mic in the package. Very turnkey approach..



translated from Swedish:
New gadget from DSPeaker at once! This looks very interesting until I saw the price.

​

Found Online

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3 x Toslink input

2 x Analog RCA input​

2 x Analog RCA inputs

1 x XLR analog input​

1 x XLR analog input

USB Audio​

USB Audio

USB​

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Thermometer (5D Anti-Mode™)​

Thermometer (5D Anti-Mode ™)

Service port​

Service port

12V trigger output​

12V trigger output

2.2 Analog RCA output​

2.2 RCA Analog output

2.2 Balanced XLR output​

2.2 Balanced XLR output

1 x Coaxial output​

1 x Coaxial output

1 x Toslink output​

1 x Toslink output

6.3mm Headphone output (headphone-DSP, EQ, X-feed / HRTF process, render)​

6.3mm Headphone output (headphone-in DSP, EQ, X-feed / HRTF process, render)

Balanced XLR 48V "phantom" microphone input​

Balanced XLR 48V "phantom" microphone input

Bluetooth​

Bluetooth [h=4][/h]