Trying out Cardas "Golden Ratio" Placement in my Room

JSQT

JSQT

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
174
Location
Salem VA
Hey all, it's been an eventful 2020 for us all and as such I have been in lurking mode for most of the year.

But I am coming out of hibernation to share the results of a major room overhaul this weekend. Since my last system update in February where I was introduced to Naim for the first time (Uniti Nova) I have moved up the chain to a Naim separates system consisting of the Supernait 3 and NDX 2 streamer.

As a result of having my home theater and 2 channel system in the same room however, I was running out of space for the "required" Naim power supplies. Until it dawned on me that I had an entire other half of a room BEHIND me that was being unused. Which was also really intriguing because I have long thought I could get better imaging out of my system if I eliminated the console and wall-mounted TV from between my speakers.

So long story short - due to not having usable corners on the other side of the room I decided to experiment with the Cardas placement for my Volti Rivals. Using their online calculator I determined optimal placement is about 7.5' from the back wall with about 4.3' from each side wall.

After setting this up and re-arranging amps, subwoofers, and power to that side of the room, I worked with toe-in for a bit and found that this set up is actually jaw-dropping from an imaging and soundstage standpoint. It is as though the band is performing about 3' feet back and inside the speaker stage - almost like a hologram. The effect is especially stunning when listening to just a singer and instrument, such as Eeg Fonnesbaek's "Willow Weep for Me."

I would bore everyone with another paragraph of superlatives but suffice it to say the system is staying put right where it is. And I finally have room to add an XPS DR power supply for the NDX 2 which will complete my Naim 4 box system.

Here are some pics of the final arragement

JSQT's Media Room November 2020
 
Great set up! I also came to the conclusion that playing around with speaker locations will give you the best bang for your buck! Congratulations and enjoy it!
 
Some years back when I was building out the 2ch/theater room, I tried to come as close as possible to the “golden ratio” for room dimensions and it was the best sounding room I’ve ever listened in. Of course the extensive ASC treatments also did their magic.
 
nicoff said:
Great set up! I also came to the conclusion that playing around with speaker locations will give you the best bang for your buck! Congratulations and enjoy it!
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Thanks, yes it is the most significant change I have experienced so far, aside from a major component swap like speakers or amps. I was very worried about moving everything over there because it all sounded so awesome on that one side of the room with the home theater stuff. But spending hours on getting placement right, working on toe-in, and (a big factor) working on getting the 2 JL Audio d110 subs dialed in as well has made this a massive change for the better. The 2 JL subs are elevated on Sound Anchor stands and lined up exactly behind the Rivals, at 2/3rds the distance from the wall. After dialing in the phase on each one, it is so quick and so impactful it's like having a giant holographic woofer hanging right in between the 2 main speakers. It's an incredible impact.
 
TheOctopus said:
Some years back when I was building out the 2ch/theater room, I tried to come as close as possible to the “golden ratio” for room dimensions and it was the best sounding room I’ve ever listened in. Of course the extensive ASC treatments also did their magic.
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Yeah the 3 massive 7" bass traps and diffusion/absorption panels at first reflections are playing a big part in the sound I am sure. I also have 6 additional bass traps in the rear of the room as well as corner bass traps in the opposite corners. The front half of this 2 channel room does not have corners thanks to an entry doorway on the right and a window (with heavy curtains) on the left. But there is no bloat or bloom whatsoever in the sound.
 
Most folks do not have the luxury of being able to play around with speaker locations. Often, WAF or room usage constraints limits placement in a way that does not let a person get the best possible sound. IME, Speaker and seat positions are much more important than fancy interconnects or power cords.
 
Remember that the Cardas speaker placement method works best with near-field listening, so it should be modified or ignored for speaker systems with more than 2 drivers, except in very large rooms where one can sit far enough away from the speaker for the drivers to blend
 
rbbert said:
Remember that the Cardas speaker placement method works best with near-field listening, so it should be modified or ignored for speaker systems with more than 2 drivers, except in very large rooms where one can sit far enough away from the speaker for the drivers to blend
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My seating is near-field in a 1:1:1 equilateral triangle and I have a perfectly centered phantom center image. I'm about 7' from the speakers and the drivers are 7' apart. I assume since there is no localization at all between the 2 speakers (can't tell where sound is coming from) this is the proper near-field setup.

The only drawback I've seen so far is that the width of the soundstage image is slightly smaller (not as much outside the speakers) than my old setup. However it's definitely a trade-off I am happy with.
 
Interesting experience. I originally used the Cardas method for my set up but always thought that perhaps I should do a little more experimenting. I used the Wilson Audio Setup Procedure and improved the sound in the system in all the important attributes. In addition, instead of an equilateral triangle at the listening position the distance between the speakers is about 85% of the distance to the listening position. This was a fairly easy set up. I have found that using absolute formulas doesn't consider the current environment of the room and the Wilson setup does. You never know what you can gain until you try it.
 
Interesting, this is the first I've heard of the WASP method, I will definitely look into this more. Unfortunately I cannot move my listening chair any further back from the speakers to increase the distance, as it backs right up against my couch which is pointed in the opposite direction (and positioned for my surround and Atmos overhead speakers). The 1:1:1 distance is working pretty well for me. The ONE THING that I feel like I am sacrificing is the width of the soundstage with this Cardas setup. The bass is pinpoint accurate and the speakers definitely disappear to create an uncanny holographic placement between and behind the speakers. However, the sound definitely does not extend beyond the speakers, and there is material with hard-panned elements (acoustic guitar etc) that can break the illusion (very easy to localize when hard-panned to one side or another).
 
JSQT said:
Yeah the 3 massive 7" bass traps and diffusion/absorption panels at first reflections are playing a big part in the sound I am sure. I also have 6 additional bass traps in the rear of the room as well as corner bass traps in the opposite corners. The front half of this 2 channel room does not have corners thanks to an entry doorway on the right and a window (with heavy curtains) on the left. But there is no bloat or bloom whatsoever in the sound.
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Nice! Bass traps definitely work their magic on the overall coherence. I’ll look for the other video that shows the room better but here is one when it was all done with the last system that was in there. Wilson Alexia - YouTube
 
Don’t forget Jim Smith and “Get Better Sound”, a tried and true method that incorporates parts of most of the others mentioned here (and discards parts that Jim have found to be unhelpful and/or counterproductive)
 
The whole science of acoustics is fascinating and accounts more for the sound of a system (or at least just as much) than any other component. I have experimented with the Sumiko method before and it was quite tedious. I never was able to get everything "perfect" but because I was doing this myself I just eventually went with the best sound I could get out of it. That's what I like about the Cardas method is that being based on measured distances it's fairly easy to lock in the distances from back and side walls, and then experimenting with toe-in is easy. When Greg Roberts initially set up my Rivals he told me he likes to toe-in to where the drivers are crossing about a foot in front of your face, which results in some pretty severe toe-in angles depending on how far apart the speakers are. I also worked a bit with rake/height on this placement with the Orea pucks and it did work well to elevate the soundstage. My only complaint continues to be the width of the soundstage on the outside of the speakers themselves.

I use Eek & Fonnesbaek's "Willow Weep for Me" rather than the Ballad of the Runaway Horse to get final toe in set, and it is pretty dead-on right now.

Someday when the pandemic lets up I may actually have someone over to help me dial in even further, or even better hire Jim to come by and consult on my room.
 
JSQT said:
The whole science of acoustics is fascinating and accounts more for the sound of a system (or at least just as much) than any other component....
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You are right. IMO, speaker + room are 80% of the game.
 
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