The rubber hits the road: MSB direct to power amp or not?

AJR

AJR

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
822
Location
Singapore
All,

I have an interesting situation.

My Gryphon Pandora is faulty (right channel not working). Maybe just a fuse - who knows. My wonderful Gryphon dealer in Singapore is checking it out.

In the meantime, am running my MSB Premier DAC directly to my Gryphon Antileon Evo. For the first time. Can’t believe I never even compared the Pandora to the MSB.

Anyway, it sounds fantastic! Definitely different compared to the Pandora. Can’t quite put my finger on the difference: would need them both up and running so I can compare. And the MSB pre-amp has not been burnt in so am sure it will get better.

Does anyone else have experience with this situation?

Andrew
 
So far, the high end and low end are good. Mid range is muddy. But only 10 hours into burning it in so let’s see
 
One thing that has occured to me: presumably we all agree that the mid range is the most important. It is the vocals, the drums and the bass, within what we can hear. Of course we need a broader range. But why is it that the mid range only gets a 6” speaker? Maybe because that is all that is needed. I dunno
 
Tested my US$700 canare speaker cables against my MIT $7.5k cables (which my dog ate) replacement testing cables in a blind testing with mates. Nobody could tell the difference. Fascinating.
 
AJR said:
Tested my US$700 canare speaker cables against my MIT $7.5k cables (which my dog ate) replacement testing cables in a blind testing with mates. Nobody could tell the difference. Fascinating.
Click to expand...

Stop the presses, say it isn't so !! :snicker:
 
I do not want to believe! Will reserve judgment when I do a blind A/B. But for now, nobody can tell the difference!
 
in general, toward the bottom of the scale of the price/performance curve, a preamp is a hinderance to the purity of a source. by that i mean that the drive benefits of a modestly priced preamp, are held back by the modest circuits, modest chassis and modest cables needed. you have added restrictions to the signal path, that are not sufficiently compensated for by the active preamp advantages.

for your system; one might need the switching capabilities of a full line stage, or the extra drive for your cable lengths. but it's not helping the net performance.

now; past this point of price/performance, a preamp may possess sufficient performance to provide a net gain.

when people are asking me about how to allocate resources (budget) to various components when starting out, i mostly recommend most of it go to speakers and the source. find a source with a volume control, or buy a cheap passive pre, but until you get past a certain system investment level, a preamp is not pushing the performance.

please know that i do not claim this is your circumstance. but i know that MSB dacs have excellent passive preamps, and i know how that works in my system. it takes a $50k battery powered darTZeel preamp to better my MSB dac going direct to my amps.
 
I have run Premier DAC straight into Gryphon Antileon Sig- sounded wonderful.
If it didn't use SO much power, I'd have kept that setup running 24/7; when warm (HOT!) it was heavenly- effortless and liquid with good soundstage depth. Tonally a bit dark but delicious.
 
AJR said:
Tested my US$700 canare speaker cables against my MIT $7.5k cables (which my dog ate) replacement testing cables in a blind testing with mates. Nobody could tell the difference. Fascinating.
Click to expand...

Minimal difference or no difference at all?
 
I had the mighty Audio Research Reference 10 Preamp in my system, which I was using in conjunction with the Esoteric Grandioso K1 Player. The combo produced a warm and wonderful sound with tremendous dynamics.

I decided to move up to the MSB Select DAC and when I removed the ARC REF10, I achieved significantly increased transparency, more detail and a lower noise floor with no loss in dynamics. The system retained its natural warmth but with greater clarity and accuracy.

I consequently decided to sell the ARC REF10 and have never looked back. Running direct from my Select DAC to my Vandersteen M7-HPA mono amps has given me better sound than I could have ever imagined.

Ken
 
Alpinist said:
I had the mighty Audio Research Reference 10 Preamp in my system, which I was using in conjunction with the Esoteric Grandioso K1 Player. The combo produced a warm and wonderful sound with tremendous dynamics.

I decided to move up to the MSB Select DAC and when I removed the ARC REF10, I achieved significantly increased transparency, more detail and a lower noise floor with no loss in dynamics. The system retained its natural warmth but with greater clarity and accuracy.

I consequently decided to sell the ARC REF10 and have never looked back. Running direct from my Select DAC to my Vandersteen M7-HPA mono amps has given me better sound than I could have ever imagined.

Ken
Click to expand...

This makes sense for someone whose system sources are 100% digital. However, once you have multiple sources which includes analog, active preamps come in real handy.
 
Mike Lavigne said:
in general, toward the bottom of the scale of the price/performance curve, a preamp is a hinderance to the purity of a source. by that i mean that the drive benefits of a modestly priced preamp, are held back by the modest circuits, modest chassis and modest cables needed. you have added restrictions to the signal path, that are not sufficiently compensated for by the active preamp advantages.

for your system; one might need the switching capabilities of a full line stage, or the extra drive for your cable lengths. but it's not helping the net performance.

now; past this point of price/performance, a preamp may possess sufficient performance to provide a net gain.

when people are asking me about how to allocate resources (budget) to various components when starting out, i mostly recommend most of it go to speakers and the source. find a source with a volume control, or buy a cheap passive pre, but until you get past a certain system investment level, a preamp is not pushing the performance.

please know that i do not claim this is your circumstance. but i know that MSB dacs have excellent passive preamps, and i know how that works in my system. it takes a $50k battery powered darTZeel preamp to better my MSB dac going direct to my amps.
Click to expand...

How about a dollar figure for what you consider the bottom of the scale of the price performance cure where a preamp will hinder the purity of a source?
 
nicoludio said:
Minimal difference or no difference at all?
Click to expand...

It’s a great question and I should have elaborated. No-one could tell which cable was which. But there were differences: Canare was slightly more “transparent” with a “clearer soundstage”. MITs were slightly more “fuller/weightier” in sound. Very, very small differences however. Will keep testing.

And will report back when I receive my repaired Pandora on the comparison between with and without the Pandora.

And yep - I am 100% digital so that impacts the analysis.
 
mep said:
How about a dollar figure for what you consider the bottom of the scale of the price performance cure where a preamp will hinder the purity of a source?
Click to expand...

Won’t it depend on the particular preamp and how it fits in with the system?
 
Received my repaired Pandora back today. A slightly sheepish backtrack: no question that my music sounds better using the Pandora as my pre-amp instead of going direct from my MSB Premier to my Antileon Evo. Much richer, more detailed, and just sounds better. A good lesson that memory is not a good measure of sound. Can only compare in real time by switching between whatever it is that you are comparing, and ideally blind testing. Would still love to compare the better pre-amp stage of the MSB Reference with the Pandora. But for now will be sticking with the Pandora and waiting until I move into a bigger apartment at which point my focus will be on a speaker upgrade.
 
AJR said:
Received my repaired Pandora back today. A slightly sheepish backtrack: no question that my music sounds better using the Pandora as my pre-amp instead of going direct from my MSB Premier to my Antileon Evo. Much richer, more detailed, and just sounds better. A good lesson that memory is not a good measure of sound. Can only compare in real time by switching between whatever it is that you are comparing, and ideally blind testing. Would still love to compare the better pre-amp stage of the MSB Reference with the Pandora. But for now will be sticking with the Pandora and waiting until I move into a bigger apartment at which point my focus will be on a speaker upgrade.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear the Pandora preamp is sounding so good. The preamp stage of the Reference and Select DAC is significantly better than the Premier’s preamp stage. I think you are making the right choice using the Pandora.

Ken
 
Thanks Ken. Would *love* to test the Reference direct to my AE. No chance unfortunately. I am happy with my electronics now (but with an eye to the Reference at some point in the future) and will be focusing on speakers closer to when I move into a new apartment/house in 12 months or so.
 
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