Musicfirst
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Do such animals exist?
Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers
- Thread starter Musicfirst
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UltraFast69
New member
I don’t need any subs [emoji41]
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
the professor
Active member
They do exist but they are not cheap.
Wilson makes some and Magico makes some.
Wilson makes some and Magico makes some.
W9TR
Member
A sub being ‘fast’ is more about how it is integrated with the mains than a brand, style, or type. To be ‘fast’ a sub must time align with the mains, which usually means some sort of external crossover that has the ability to delay the acoustic output of the mains so it matches that of the sub.
NekoAudio
New member
One could also characterize a fast subwoofer based on group delay and decay measurements. Independent of any integration with other speakers.
Totally agree.
Musicfirst
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Wouldn't it be better to have the crossover/low pass filter in the sub(s) provide the necessary electrical characteristics to mate seamlessly with the mains?
Read about properly integrating a sub here.
https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-u...oiNJEygKC7q3wk&mobile_site=true&source=search
https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-u...oiNJEygKC7q3wk&mobile_site=true&source=search
Jack
Active member
Of course if you sell $3000 outboard crossovers you will contend that's the best method.
AJ Soundfield
Active member
For seamless acoustic summation, both the high and low pass electrical filters matter and more importantly, the physical spatial position of the sources. The latter being the bane of most separated subwoofer setups. The low pass filter itself creates a delay, often compounded by the greater distance of the subs away from listener, vs mains. Without delay for the mains (usually 99.9% non existent), proper phase (and thus frequency) integration exists only in the mind, vs the actual room. The room of course, also plays a very large part in both integration, amplitude smoothness, decay and "speed" of the bass.
cheers,
AJ
W9TR
Member
duplicate post
W9TR
Member
Great question - the reason crossovers/equalizers in subs don’t solve the ‘fast’ problem is that the group delay of a modern sub is large enough (especially if it has some kind of digital eq built in) that the initial direct sound from the sub will be delayed with respect to the mains. So you need an external crossover to add delay to
the mains so that they are synchronized in time with the sub output.
The point about knowing group delay of a sub is also a great one - the smaller the overall delay the better chance you have of integrating it with your mains.
Regardless of who sells what, you can’t argue with physics. And while it is true that JL makes an outboard crossover, other manufactures also make outboard crossovers to get similar results. Also you can use any preamp that has the capability of creating time delays for the main speakers (that’s the route I used).
World's fastest subs?
http://tbisound.com/dsp_sound_speed.asp
http://tbisound.com/dsp_sound_technical.asp
http://tbisound.com/dsp_sound_speed.asp
http://tbisound.com/dsp_sound_technical.asp
AJ Soundfield
Active member
The L'Opera subs in a Learjet 7500 are faster
the professor
Active member
I think of when someone says fastest sub, I think of GREAT sound that integrates with the main speakers.
Speed being just a way of verbal communication - not exactly literal.
Fast - can be had at pretty much any price. Probably just need a crossover that isn't in the way and a big responsive magnet. In some people's mind smaller the cone, faster the sub is. Maybe but to put out enough acoustical energy, it usually sounds like crap.
So like anything - it is a give and take.
When I said Wilson and Magico -- out of all the subs I've had and had many hours/days experience with. Those have integrated best with the most systems/rooms. Technically - they might measure as the slowest subs out there. Don't care. Ears will tell you that they work the best.
Speed being just a way of verbal communication - not exactly literal.
Fast - can be had at pretty much any price. Probably just need a crossover that isn't in the way and a big responsive magnet. In some people's mind smaller the cone, faster the sub is. Maybe but to put out enough acoustical energy, it usually sounds like crap.
So like anything - it is a give and take.
When I said Wilson and Magico -- out of all the subs I've had and had many hours/days experience with. Those have integrated best with the most systems/rooms. Technically - they might measure as the slowest subs out there. Don't care. Ears will tell you that they work the best.
Mike Lavigne
Member
well, er, hummm.
the fastest subwoofer would be one you are never aware is there. I would prefer to call this perspective a stealth subwoofer, instead of ultra fast. the goal is (1) seamless coherence first, being of a piece with the rest of the whole frequency range. by definition it is 'fast enough' to keep up. then (2) extension, (3) tunefulness, and (4) authority. but the rub is getting 1, and still having 2, 3 and 4.
subs for ultra fast speakers really need to be designed into the speaker. it's the lack of coherence we hear as plodding bass, not whether the driver is able to keep up. fast is is just seamless by another name.
my twin tower MM7 speakers are a completely integrated system. meaning that the main passive towers (that extend into the 20hz region) are rolled off at the bottom to 'fit' the active bass towers (that go up to 40hz) perfectly. and the bass towers are adjustable for the room. the MM7's use a first order crossover and are time and phase aligned. so assuming that the towers are set-up equidistant from the listener, your wave launch is coherent top to bottom.
18 months into owning the MM7's my speaker designer visited to do the final room set-up for me. but there was a problem, I had a major 10db+ suck-out at 30hz so he just got it as right as he could, but suggested that the suck out was due to a ceiling bass trap and that if I closed it up he figured the suck-out would go away. but then I would need to re-adjust my bass tower settings. 9 months later I did close up that ceiling bass trap, it solved the 30hz suck-out, but it did throw off the adjustments. so I had to start over.
my speaker designer had used his program to do the set up, but I did not have that tool. so what I did was to start making adjustments and my reference was nothing bad. by that I mean I would turn off the active bass tower to eliminate it, and see if I preferred it on or off. if it was better on then I was going in the right direction. I would keep moving in one direction until I found the sweet spot, then back the other way, then back again. in essence the 'off' position was the 'control' showing the reference point. the bass tower had to always be better than that. it had to disappear into the music. the bass could not intrude on the music. I kept working at improving bass performance, always comparing it to the 'off' position to make sure it never intruded.
I viewed this as a stealth process. first, do no harm.
each bass tower has -4- 15" powered subwoofer drivers, and -2- 1000 watt amplifiers. each amplifier has 4 dials to adjust. I spent 6 weeks adjusting each set of 4 dials hundreds and hundreds of times, then going back and forth as the four adjustments were all dynamically inter-related. at the end, my bass was....and is still stealthy. it does not intrude, you are never aware of -2- 7 foot tall 750 pound towers each with -4- 15" subwoofers. it only serves the music. of course; when called upon musically it can get the job done to -3db at 7hz and -6db at 3hz.
fast? so fast you are not aware they are there.
I have many visitors to my room, and this bottom octave coherence and total seamlessness is a consistent comment from everyone.
again; ultra fast bass is bass that serves the music and does not call attention to itself.
added note; of course; the bass we hear is not really in the subwoofer; musically it is more the mid and upper bass; 40hz-250hz. this is where the power of the bass lives; where double bass, piano, vocals, and drum kits live and die. and my MM7 speakers have -4- 11" ceramic matrix woofer drivers in each passive main tower to cover these frequencies. with so much driver surface covering these frequencies the driver excursion is minimal keeping the linearity, and in a 97db efficient speaker the amplifier is not stressed, and since most speakers have a crossover in these frequencies the lack of one here is another advantage. so you want fast bass, this is fast bass.
subwoofers are really not the point. they can hurt, but don't really do 'fast'. just say'n.
the fastest subwoofer would be one you are never aware is there. I would prefer to call this perspective a stealth subwoofer, instead of ultra fast. the goal is (1) seamless coherence first, being of a piece with the rest of the whole frequency range. by definition it is 'fast enough' to keep up. then (2) extension, (3) tunefulness, and (4) authority. but the rub is getting 1, and still having 2, 3 and 4.
subs for ultra fast speakers really need to be designed into the speaker. it's the lack of coherence we hear as plodding bass, not whether the driver is able to keep up. fast is is just seamless by another name.
my twin tower MM7 speakers are a completely integrated system. meaning that the main passive towers (that extend into the 20hz region) are rolled off at the bottom to 'fit' the active bass towers (that go up to 40hz) perfectly. and the bass towers are adjustable for the room. the MM7's use a first order crossover and are time and phase aligned. so assuming that the towers are set-up equidistant from the listener, your wave launch is coherent top to bottom.
18 months into owning the MM7's my speaker designer visited to do the final room set-up for me. but there was a problem, I had a major 10db+ suck-out at 30hz so he just got it as right as he could, but suggested that the suck out was due to a ceiling bass trap and that if I closed it up he figured the suck-out would go away. but then I would need to re-adjust my bass tower settings. 9 months later I did close up that ceiling bass trap, it solved the 30hz suck-out, but it did throw off the adjustments. so I had to start over.
my speaker designer had used his program to do the set up, but I did not have that tool. so what I did was to start making adjustments and my reference was nothing bad. by that I mean I would turn off the active bass tower to eliminate it, and see if I preferred it on or off. if it was better on then I was going in the right direction. I would keep moving in one direction until I found the sweet spot, then back the other way, then back again. in essence the 'off' position was the 'control' showing the reference point. the bass tower had to always be better than that. it had to disappear into the music. the bass could not intrude on the music. I kept working at improving bass performance, always comparing it to the 'off' position to make sure it never intruded.
I viewed this as a stealth process. first, do no harm.
each bass tower has -4- 15" powered subwoofer drivers, and -2- 1000 watt amplifiers. each amplifier has 4 dials to adjust. I spent 6 weeks adjusting each set of 4 dials hundreds and hundreds of times, then going back and forth as the four adjustments were all dynamically inter-related. at the end, my bass was....and is still stealthy. it does not intrude, you are never aware of -2- 7 foot tall 750 pound towers each with -4- 15" subwoofers. it only serves the music. of course; when called upon musically it can get the job done to -3db at 7hz and -6db at 3hz.
fast? so fast you are not aware they are there.
I have many visitors to my room, and this bottom octave coherence and total seamlessness is a consistent comment from everyone.
again; ultra fast bass is bass that serves the music and does not call attention to itself.
added note; of course; the bass we hear is not really in the subwoofer; musically it is more the mid and upper bass; 40hz-250hz. this is where the power of the bass lives; where double bass, piano, vocals, and drum kits live and die. and my MM7 speakers have -4- 11" ceramic matrix woofer drivers in each passive main tower to cover these frequencies. with so much driver surface covering these frequencies the driver excursion is minimal keeping the linearity, and in a 97db efficient speaker the amplifier is not stressed, and since most speakers have a crossover in these frequencies the lack of one here is another advantage. so you want fast bass, this is fast bass.
subwoofers are really not the point. they can hurt, but don't really do 'fast'. just say'n.
