perfect placement for speakers

[chris]

Have you ever tried challenging yourself to get the perfect placement for your speakers?

I have been trying to do this for my floorstanding Tannoy Cheviot (12 inch) speakers with a testing CD called 'XLO Reference Recordings Test and Burn in CD'. There are two tracks for testing in-phase and out of phase. While playing the in-phase track, a human voice reads out 'My voice should be centered between your 2 loudspeakers, tightly in focus'. Are we supposed to be able to hear the voice with a sharp focus, like a human standing right in the middle between 2 speakers speaking that sentence?I only hear a human voice coming from the front of the room, not able to 'see' someone standing right in the middle.

What should I do? I heard Tannoy's are easy when it comes to placement yet I've been moving my Tannoy's around yet still can't get it done.Many thanksChris

 

[Julot]

The perfect stereo imaging relies on perfect phase of what comes to your hear -- i.e. all of the signal comes at the same time, or more specifically a right time for your brain to interpret. So it's a good indicator of the phasing/time distortion in your system. time distortion can come from a number of places, from digital signal to cables to conception of the speakers and amplifiers , to weird acoustics or, finally, bad placement of the speakers.

This is one of the main reason why there is not only a good placement for speakers but also a "soft spot" to listen to them: speakers tend to only emit correctly (in phase), or at their best, in a limited cone, and the soft spot is where those cones intersect. There again, the speakers' characteristics depend from the drive and the way the speaker resonate.

In your case, I assume there are essentially two variables: how far the Tannoys are from the wall behind them and how far apart they are from each other and from the side walls. I would start by adjusting the first factor for the overall bass response: too close and they feel bloated, too far and the sound lacks body. Then I would play with the second factor, adjusting the width until a mono signal feels as close to a signal point emitting as possible. I would not tilt them towards the listener unless they have to be in a corner of the room.

You won't get perfect spatialization just from the placement, just optimize it. If the electronics and the speakers do not result in proper phasing, your mono voice will not feel like a man in front of you between the speakers. I don't know about the rest of your gear, but I've not heard perfect spatialization from Tannoys -- a great feeling of space and presence, but never one that was perfectly in focus for all instruments. Here you would get only one piano but two singers, there two pianos and one singer, and even worse, sometimes only one piano for some notes and a double piano for some other notes.

 

[sharkmouth]

The perfect stereo imaging relies on perfect phase of what comes to your hear -- i.e. all of the signal comes at the same time, or more specifically a right time for your brain to interpret. So it's a good indicator of the phasing/time distortion in your system. time distortion can come from a number of places, from digital signal to cables to conception of the speakers and amplifiers , to weird acoustics or, finally, bad placement of the speakers.

This is one of the main reason why there is not only a good placement for speakers but also a "soft spot" to listen to them: speakers tend to only emit correctly (in phase), or at their best, in a limited cone, and the soft spot is where those cones intersect. There again, the speakers' characteristics depend from the drive and the way the speaker resonate.

In your case, I assume there are essentially two variables: how far the Tannoys are from the wall behind them and how far apart they are from each other and from the side walls. I would start by adjusting the first factor for the overall bass response: too close and they feel bloated, too far and the sound lacks body. Then I would play with the second factor, adjusting the width until a mono signal feels as close to a signal point emitting as possible. I would not tilt them towards the listener unless they have to be in a corner of the room.

You won't get perfect spatialization just from the placement, just optimize it. If the electronics and the speakers do not result in proper phasing, your mono voice will not feel like a man in front of you between the speakers. I don't know about the rest of your gear, but I've not heard perfect spatialization from Tannoys -- a great feeling of space and presence, but never one that was perfectly in focus for all instruments. Here you would get only one piano but two singers, there two pianos and one singer, and even worse, sometimes only one piano for some notes and a double piano for some other notes.

great post. something I'd like to add is that you need to factor the room into the equation too. heres an example from mine, the room was absolutely perfect for a series of gear including MSB+McIntosh+ Stradivari, another life after that Soulution+SGR Audio, also Soulution+Sanders+Magnepan.....etc etc, my point is all were stella in "the room" until I employed some little stand-mounts with two very fast subs after the Magnepan set-up. Should have been a given & easy to set up but wasn't. Everything was bloated unless I sat in the "chair". From anywhere else in the house the bass was excessive. Never solved the riddle as I sold the house & gone baby gone, but, one thing you need to keep an open mind with is the room & the capabilities that it is capped at. Every speaker/s, come with a room contribution that need to be realised. Hence sometimes it wont be optimal.........but at least you know it's the best you can do irrespective....

 

[Adrian Low]

Have you ever tried challenging yourself to get the perfect placement for your speakers?

I have been trying to do this for my floorstanding Tannoy Cheviot (12 inch) speakers with a testing CD called 'XLO Reference Recordings Test and Burn in CD'. There are two tracks for testing in-phase and out of phase. While playing the in-phase track, a human voice reads out 'My voice should be centered between your 2 loudspeakers, tightly in focus'. Are we supposed to be able to hear the voice with a sharp focus, like a human standing right in the middle between 2 speakers speaking that sentence?I only hear a human voice coming from the front of the room, not able to 'see' someone standing right in the middle.

What should I do? I heard Tannoy's are easy when it comes to placement yet I've been moving my Tannoy's around yet still can't get it done.Many thanksChris

hi Chris,

can an you give more details of your speaker set up? E.g. Speaker distance between each other, distance of speaker from walls, and how far you are from the speakers. Include pictures if possible.

With the "in phase" track, the voice should sound like he is located between the speakers. If I understand you correctly, you find his voice is coming from a general sense between the speakers but not clearly "imaged", like a holograph. If so, you can determine if the problem is mostly the speaker set up/room interaction by simply moving the speakers away from the walls. Temporarily, say about 3-4 ft. Make sure the speakers are identically placed on both sides. Spread the speakers so they are about 8 feet apart from tweeter to tweeter. Sit about 8-10 feet away. Angle the speakers inward so the tweeters cross at your ears. Play the same track again. You should get a tight focus now (not discussing how smooth the bass or other frequencies are...just addressing the image focus).

You might want to buy Jim Smith's book "Get better sound"

 

[chris]

Hi guys,

Thanks so much for the overwhelming replies.

In response to some of you, here's the layout of my listening room. Due to computer graphic limitation, I couldn't draw the speakers in a toed in position, yet they are toed in approximately 15 - 20 degrees.

h(space)ttp://s1152.photobucket.com/users/chris983/media/layout/smyroomlayout_zpsa97dc7f9.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0


(delete the "(space)" and paste it on the address bar of your browser to see the photo)

I've tried to draw in a close proportional as possible to my actual room measurements. Yet, if in doubt, the figures in the layout should apply. Regarding the material inequality on each side of the walls, I have hung up curtains covering all the windows and glass door so they will reflect sound waves in a roughly similiar fashion as the wooden walls.

Still, I can't get a tightly focused image of the voice, not even close. What I get is a very general voice from the front plane. The speakers didn't disappear completely. Yet, as I listened to the out of phase track, the sound obviously does not come from any particular side/ direction of the room;instead, the sound comes from everywhere in the room. So it's obvious that the out of phase sounds right.

 

[mep]

Chris-Something is obviously amiss. What else is in your system?

 

[chris]

Hi Mep,

Here's my equipment:

CD player: Kenwood K-711


Pre amp: Transcendent Sound Grounded Grid


Power amp: Aragon 4004 MKII (100W per channel output)


Speaker: Tannoy Cheviot floorstanding speakers 1 pair (12 inch drivers)


interconnects: Audioquest King Cobra (1 meter each)


Speaker cables: Audioquest FLX/SLIP 14.4 (3 meters each)

 

[chris]

Hi Mep,

Here's my equipment:

CD player: Kenwood K-711


Pre amp: Transcendent Sound Grounded Grid


Power amp: Aragon 4004 MKII (100W per channel output)


Speaker: Tannoy Cheviot floorstanding speakers 1 pair (12 inch drivers)


interconnects: Audioquest King Cobra (1 meter each)


Speaker cables: Audioquest FLX/SLIP 14.4 (3 meters each)

 

[mep]

Chris-Let me ask you a question:Has your system ever imaged correctly? The Grounded Grid preamp uses cheap components and it's possible that the volume control is not tracking correctly. I actually built a Grounded Grid preamp from scratch years ago and never thought much of it and I built mine using high quality parts. I also built several versions of Bruce's first preamp that was detailed in his first book and I actually like that preamp better. I built those versions with a dual mono power supply. The first one I built used a SS outboard power supply and the second version I designed a huge outboard dual mono tube power supply using a pair of GZ-34 rectifiers.

The bottom line is that if you can't get the image to come from dead center and have it focused, something is wrong somewhere in your chain. I assume when you play the out of phase track that it sounds worse than the in phase track does?

 

[chris]

Hi Mep,

I only built my GG a while ago and has been listening to music and songs without a clear image so I have no clue to tell.

The volume is not tracking correctly? What do you mean? My very first hifi gear was a set of single unit Sony compact stereo with separate bookshelf sized speakers costing only 250USD yet could get a quite focused image as I played some CD testing tracks as far as I can remember. I am pretty sure everything inside that stereo is kinda junk.

The out of phase track sounds right to my ears so I don't worry about it.

 

[mep]

Hi Mep,

I only built my GG a while ago and has been listening to music and songs without a clear image so I have no clue to tell.

My point was that before you had the GG preamp, did your system image correctly?

The volume is not tracking correctly? What do you mean?

It means that cheap volume pots don't give equal volume from both channels (specially at the bottom of the volume control meaning when you have it turned down low) which can throw your imaging out the window. Did you double check your wiring to your pot as well to make sure you followed the schematic?

The out of phase track sounds right to my ears so I don't worry about it.

Meaning that the out of phase track sounds more indistinct with worse imaging than when you play the in phase track?

 

[chris]

Hi Mep,

Thanks so much for the quick reply.

After hearing from you, I've just tried testing with ONLY a CD receiver. I bought it new a few months back so I am sure the left and right volume and everything sounds right. Also, by using an all in one compact CD receiver, it rules out all the possibility of wires and guts inside any particular component being failure. ANyway, there is only one pair of speaker cables I have to make sure working properly. Yet, the same result as when I used my GG and Aragon, The sound only comes from the front plane without a focused image.

FYI, before the GG, I didn't own any hifi equipment. I used to own a lot yet I sold them all. I bought my above CD receiver and then all the pre and power amps and speakers.

Yes, the out of phase track sounds indistinct with no particular sound source.

I really can't help wondering: Is it all that we're supposed to be able to hear in that track? - a voice coming from the front plane without a focused image? Do you have any other tracks so I can use to test. Best something available on the internet.

Thanks

 

[chris]

A new finding!

I tried another testing CD called 'nordost system set-up & tuning disc' and the same thing happens.

Yet, as I was listening to the tracks for testing left and right channels, I found that there is still a very low volume coming out from the right channel (I get to the immediate front of the right speaker) while the track is for testing the left channel, with the voice saying 'left channel' repeatedly, and vice versa.

Is it normal?

 

[chris]

I found out the problem is coming from the CD player! I just replaced it with another one and yes, I only hear sound from the left speaker when the channel test is for the left speaker.

Is it easy to get a focused image? I have been moving around the speakers yet still can't get it, though the imaging sounds a bit more focused than previously with the failed CD player.

Any suggestion on the spots I should try to place the speakers on?

 

[Adrian Low]

Hi Chris, try sitting closer to the speakers initially to rule out the possibility of room interaction. If possible, place your speakers and listening chair in an equilateral triangle set up. Toe the speakers in so they face you. Play the same track, or try a mono recording with a solo singer if you have any. The voice should appear from the center. Also, if you have any reflective surface between the speakers, remove it if a possible contaminant (for example if you have a tv, move it away, or drape a heavy blanket over it). Also if you have a coffee table, remove it temporarily.

If none of these works, then there may be an issue with either your ears or the speakers. As audiophiles, we should have our ears cleaned. I know, pretty gross topic but you might be surprised how much wax builds up in the canal.

Is the volume of the speakers roughly equal? Play a recording of a solo vocal and see if the volume is pulling more to one side. With Tannoy dual concentric speakers, center focus should be one of the strengths.

 

[mep]

I suspect that the speakers are too far apart one to another which is causing his center fill to fall apart. Either that or one of his speakers is hosed.

 

[Adrian Low]

According to his attached drawing which I just looked at, speakers are 116cm apart from inside to inside. That means the tweeters are about 4-4.5' apart. Perhaps they are too close together. Try sitting about 5' or roughly the same distance as the tweeters are apart. You should get a very strong center image

 

[PeterA]

Have you checked to see if your speaker cables are wired out of phase? That is, one channel has the + and - reversed. Check both the amp output and the speaker binding posts. If that is not the problem, then I think it is likely the distance between the speakers. Also make sure there is not a lot of reflection at the first reflection points. Use a mirror to locate those areas.

I agree with the suggestion to read Jim Smith's book, "Get Better Sound".

 

[chris]

To give you a concrete idea of my room, here's a picture of it. As you can see, there is nothing between the speakers. I would also hang up a curtain to use as a fake wall so both the left and right sides equal in sound reflection. The right and left channel give an equal volume, as I listened to the track for testing volume equality of left and right speakers. For the out of phase track, the speakers both disappeared as the sound comes from around the room. I wonder if the speakers should also 'disappear' for the in phase channel testing 'tightly focused image'.

I've tried to swap the positive and negative of the speaker wires and it's obvious that I've already got them right. How do I know? As the + and - of a particular channel is swapped, it would sound instantly and obviously out of phase for that particular channel.

I've also tried to move the speakers closer to and more apart from each other. I get a sharper imaging as I moved them closer yet it's still not tightly focused.

 

[Adrian Low]

Not sure what else to suggest. Sounds like the equipment is working properly. Have you tried sitting in an equilateral triangle arrangement with the speakers toed in? I am not familiar with this particular model of Tannoy. It is also possible that the tweeter/upper midrange balance between the speakers is off, though the overall levels are similar.