New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement

jmusica

jmusica

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Just installed a new ethernet cable - Wireworld Starlight 8 Twinax Ethernet Cable for Sale - between the Lumin L1 and Lumin X1.

Generally I'm at least a little skeptical about improvement from this kind of thing, particularly when it comes to the network side of things (I mean "cat 8 is cat 8" right?), but also generally willing to keep an open mind and keep trying.

Maybe it's just confirmation bias or something else at play, but I was hearing not-subtle improvement in a few areas. Improved attack and an overall sense of crispness/resolution of small detail, better separation and layering, voice and instrument timbres were more realistic (guitar, particularly acoustic guitar, double bass, horns, piano, percussion), and a slightly increased soundstage in all directions.

I'm pretty attuned to instrument timbre especially guitar and sax since I've played both for many years, and it went from "eh, it sounds close but not all the way there" to "yeah, that sounds like a real, live acoustic guitar is supposed to sound".

Again just kinda surprised at how much it seemed to make a difference. And this is a pretty inexpensive ethernet cable.
 
jmusica said:
Just installed a new ethernet cable - Wireworld Starlight 8 Twinax Ethernet Cable for Sale - between the Lumin L1 and Lumin X1.

Generally I'm at least a little skeptical about improvement from this kind of thing, particularly when it comes to the network side of things (I mean "cat 8 is cat 8" right?), but also generally willing to keep an open mind and keep trying.

Maybe it's just confirmation bias or something else at play, but I was hearing not-subtle improvement in a few areas. Improved attack and an overall sense of crispness/resolution of small detail, better separation and layering, voice and instrument timbres were more realistic (guitar, particularly acoustic guitar, double bass, horns, piano, percussion), and a slightly increased soundstage in all directions.

I'm pretty attuned to instrument timbre especially guitar and sax since I've played both for many years, and it went from "eh, it sounds close but not all the way there" to "yeah, that sounds like a real, live acoustic guitar is supposed to sound".

Again just kinda surprised at how much it seemed to make a difference. And this is a pretty inexpensive ethernet cable.
Click to expand...

Ethernet cables make a BIG difference. It's not as simple as matter of "Cat 8 is Cat 8"....I could write a white paper as to why, suffice it to say there a number of reasons why they matter.

You should rent in a Shunyata Ethernet cable some time, even the entry level Venom blows the WW Starlight Cat8 into the weeds.
 
I am revamping my network side of things and have the NA Eno filter/cable and USB cable coming in few days hopefully. The filter will be connected to JCAT XE net card (powered by excellent LPS) and the cable connected to a Buffalo switch (also powered by LPS). There has been a quiet a bit of praise for the Eno from the folks I trust. Will see how it goes but needless to say that anything done to optimize the network helps a lot.
 
Timing is not a problem with ethernet connection - the data is transferred just like any other computer files using TCP/UDP protocols and buffered on streamer/renderer.

It's completely different story compared with the connection between transport and DAC where jitter/timing does have an effect.
 
Delija said:
Timing is not a problem with ethernet connection - the data is transferred just like any other computer files using TCP/UDP protocols and buffered on streamer/renderer.

It's completely different story compared with the connection between transport and DAC where jitter/timing does have an effect.
Click to expand...

TCP/IP is just transmission protocol, nothing more.

The actual signal is an analog square wave voltage.

It's noise on the ground plane in the form of high-source impedance leakage current on Ethernet and USB cables that causes the problem. This voltage is impacted by the high-source impedance leakage current, and results in a specific form of jitter known as threshold jitter, which concomitantly impacts timing.
 
Electrical signal prone to jitter is between streamer/renderer and DAC - not before streamer. The data that came through ethernet connection is 100% correct in memory buffer - before clock is even used to create that electrical signal - for DAC.

If streamer/renderer is not implemented properly and with proper galvanic isolation of ethernet port, electrical noise/EMI could affect the generated electrical signal on streamer output - toward DAC.
 
Delija said:
If streamer/renderer is not implemented properly and with proper galvanic isolation of ethernet port, electrical noise/EMI could affect the generated electrical signal on streamer output - toward DAC.
Click to expand...

Precisely. Actually the whole shebang of network optimization has nothing to do with the networking itself.
 
Puma Cat said:
TCP/IP is just transmission protocol, nothing more.

The actual signal is an analog square wave voltage.

It's noise on the ground plane in the form of high-source impedance leakage current on Ethernet and USB cables that causes the problem. This voltage is impacted by the high-source impedance leakage current, and results in a specific form of jitter known as threshold jitter, which concomitantly impacts timing.
Click to expand...

Yes. Ethernet data is transmitted as an analog signal. The receiving device converts it to digital.
 
Is an ethernet cable digital or analogue? - Quora

Thought her explanation was helpful, as well some of the ones further down.

In a separate thread I finally - after Puma patiently schooled me lol - realized I'd forgotten this part of networking theory but it is in fact what I was taught. In my probably over-simplified version the data (songs represented by a bunch of 0s and 1s collected to a file stored at rest on a hard drive somewhere) is digital in the sense that the data is encoded as 0s and 1s. That file is transmitted in the form of ethernet packets ("ethernet" being one of many possible definitions of the arrangement/structure of that "data" required to ensure the data gets from point A to point B as intended). On the receiving device side it's unpacked/decoded from bits to something the intended device interprets - via software - for it's purpose (audio video websites whatever).

But the way is gets from device A to device B is "analog" in the sense the 0s and 1s are represent by electrical voltage changes over that piece of wire. When Puma and others talk about why ethernet data transmission is subject to types of interference causing jitter and timing problems it's the analog/electrical nature of that transmission they're referring to.

Hopefully I simplified that in a mostly correct way. Ironically when I was studying this kind of networking theory I was sort of like "who cares move on this makes no difference to me some EE somewhere handled it". And now, I care!
 
Puma Cat said:
a specific form of jitter known as threshold jitter, which concomitantly impacts timing.
Click to expand...

reminds me of the good old days when tuning up my car (points ignition), dwell impacts timing yet timing does not impact dwell.

Sorry Stephen, I couldn't resist .....:celebrate008_2:
 
Mikado463 said:
reminds me of the good old days when tuning up my car (points ignition), dwell impacts timing yet timing does not impact dwell.

Sorry Stephen, I couldn't resist .....:celebrate008_2:
Click to expand...

Yep, this is what as known, Dave, as a statistically-significant interaction of control factors influencing a functional response.

A classic one in baking, as well as chemistry (of which baking is one form of..), is the Time*Temp interaction.

Yet, science students at Uni are not taught this, students are instead taught OFAT....One Factor At a Time.
 
Puma Cat said:
Yep, this is what as known, Dave, as a statistically-significant interaction of control factors influencing a functional response.

A classic one in baking, as well as chemistry (of which baking is one form of..), is the Time*Temp interaction.

Yet, science students at Uni are not taught this, students are instead taught OFAT....One Factor At a Time.
Click to expand...


Regarding baking, the wife noted you left out one of the most important considerations, 'measurements", if your measurements are off, your times and temp are off as well. :hey: carry on.
 
CPP said:
Regarding baking, the wife noted you left out one of the most important considerations, 'measurements", if your measurements are off, your times and temp are off as well. :hey: carry on.
Click to expand...

Before you would characterize any statistically valid functional interactions with DOE, it goes without saying you would do an statistically valid measurement systems analyis, aka, MSA...to qualify the measurement system before doing DOEs to characterize interaction studies.

Gage-Table.jpg


Gage-Plot.jpg


I didn't forget about it at all, I just didn't want to get into presenting an entire course on Design for Six Sigma here. (FWIW, I used to do this professionally as a DFSS Master Black Belt).

:hey: Carry on.
 
Puma Cat said:
Before you would characterize any statistically valid functional interactions with DOE, it goes without saying you would do an statistically valid measurement systems analyis, aka, MSA...to qualify the measurement system before doing DOEs to characterize interaction studies.

Gage-Table.jpg


Gage-Plot.jpg


I didn't forget about it at all, I just didn't want to get into presenting an entire course on Design for Six Sigma here. (FWIW, I used to do this professionally as a DFSS Master Black Belt).

:hey: Carry on.
Click to expand...

What you noted has zip to do with my comment on baking , Define the problem, no measurements . But interesting.,:peace: .
 
CPP said:
What you noted has zip to do with my comment on baking , Define the problem, no measurements . But interesting.,:peace: .
Click to expand...

Actually, it has EVERYTHING to do with it. But, I'm not going to post an entire course curricula of Variance Components Analysis here.

Cheers.
 
Puma Cat said:
Ethernet cables make a BIG difference. It's not as simple as matter of "Cat 8 is Cat 8"....I could write a white paper as to why, suffice it to say there a number of reasons why they matter.

You should rent in a Shunyata Ethernet cable some time, even the entry level Venom blows the WW Starlight Cat8 into the weeds.
Click to expand...

There are other cables then just Shunyata, it's all very system dependent, not just our own systems.
 
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