Nagra VPS in the house!

[Kuoppis]

For some time already I wanted to give this phono-pre a spin. Finally I got the opportunity.

What are your experiences?

 

[jfrech]

I've owned my Nagra VPS/VFS/MPS for over 8 years now. It's been a fixture in my system. Absolutely everything else has changed along the way...

If you can get a VFS to put it on...helps a little. Pucks or some kind of support under the power supply help it a little to. Stock tubes seem to be best. I've found that transformers+tubes sound best to me. However Transformers+tubes+solid stage gain is better in the extremes. So more midrange beauty one way...more control in the bass another way. It's small...but noticeable.

I've used it with cartridges from .2mv to .6mv. All to great effect.

It's a wonderful phono stage in my opinion. Excellent at imaging, tonal colors, textures.

Let us know what you think !

 

[Kuoppis]

Hello Jfrech, thank you for sharing your insights - appreciate it.

I am currently also on tubes + SS and agree that the additional definition does the tubes good. Maybe I need to try the transformers as well.

Which cartridge load module works best with a .4mv cart based on your experience?


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[Jerome W]

Congrats !!
I do love Nagra a lot.
I have a MSA and a BPS.
They are terrific. I guess the VPS is stunning.

 

[Kuoppis]

Thank you, agree Nagra makes great gear.

So far I do like the VPS quite a bit, no final conclusion yet though. The slightly recessed lower highs require some getting accustomed to. But the highs are nice, the bass is great and it has some of the tube magic in the midrange.

Have however heard tube phono-pres with a more liquid sound.


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[jfrech]

Thank you, agree Nagra makes great gear.

So far I do like the VPS quite a bit, no final conclusion yet though. The slightly recessed lower highs require some getting accustomed to. But the highs are nice, the bass is great and it has some of the tube magic in the midrange.

Have however heard tube phono-pres with a more liquid sound.


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Liquid is one of it's strengths and I don't notice the recessed highs. Are you still on tubes+SS? I'd try transformers+tubes (my favorite set up). I think you'll like this combination a lot better based on what you said above...

Also, what gain card are you using? that could be a culprit also...could be loaded down to much

 

[Kuoppis]

Yes, still on tubes and SS. It could be the gain setting as well, I am using the 100 Ohm card with a .4mv cart. I thought that would be closest to the recommended 200 Ohms.


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[jfrech]

Yes, still on tubes and SS. It could be the gain setting as well, I am using the 100 Ohm card with a .4mv cart. I thought that would be closest to the recommended 200 Ohms.


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I'd try the 330 ohm card next. 100 is damping it down quite a bit. Then I think you'll like the Transformers + tubes....let us know...

 

[Kuoppis]

Oh boy - I'm in trouble with this one. So this is purely subjective, my ears, my system, my acoustics, my experience. So all in all not too much to build on.

Compared the 6K Nagra VPS to the 1,5K EAR 834P Signature. Expectation is the Nagra would outshine the EAR very easily, I'm ready to buy it.

System is Vpi Prime on Finite Elemente Cerabase Classic footers, double belted, with ext transformer/ motor control and gyroscope, Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cart, Vpi 10" 3D tone arm, Stillpoints LPI puck, Ayre 5/20 pre and power, WyWires interconnects, Shunyata Triton power management + power cables, Magico S3 speakers, Vicoustic acoustic treatment.

This is what I heard:

VPS with 100 Ohm cart load: loved the transparency very much and the top and bottom extension, really beautiful. Details, clarity, great bass extension. Almost perfect, but upper mid/ lower highs frequencies a bit recessed, to an extent that you almost do not hear the subtle snare on 'Drum Solo' on Manu Katchés Live in Paris album. Bass weight also a bit on the light side, despite reaching really deep. Sound almost SS type, crisp and taut, nevertheless with some liquidity on Sax pieces. Overall maybe a bit flat though, grand piano lacks dimension on Diana Krall's "Errand Girl For Rhythm". I also noticed I had to turn up the Ayre pre about 15% more and listen a bit louder to get a good sound.

VPS with 330 Ohm cart load: Sound got very warm, very tubey. Great colors and texture, but unfortunately it lost its snap. All in all a tad muddy, lacking the transparency as with the earlier load.

In comparison the EAR was much more balanced, with fuller bass compared to both loads, liquid mids with great colors, nice definition and good extension in the highs. Also better dynamics all in all. Comparable to 100 Ohm load in transient speed, but much faster than the Nagra with the 330 Ohm load. I really liked it with the 100 Ohm load, but some frequencies being almost inaudible is a challenge. So far, in a summary, surprisingly the EAR offered the more balanced sound and the better listening experience for 1/4 of the price of the Nagra. Maybe the solution is to go higher up in the EAR range, instead to the Nagra. I wanted the Nagra to be better, but it appears Tim de Paravincini also knows what he is doing.

Reasons for the findings? System synergy I guess. Ortofon carts tend to be cooler and a good match with the warm and fast, but potentially a bit soft in the bass EAR phono pre.

I'm going to test tomorrow again, because I have a hard time believing what I just concluded. Let's see whether I do get a different result, will report back.


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[jfrech]

Oh boy - I'm in trouble with this one. So this is purely subjective, my ears, my system, my acoustics, my experience. So all in all not too much to build on.

Compared the 6K Nagra VPS to the 1,5K EAR 834P Signature. Expectation is the Nagra would outshine the EAR very easily, I'm ready to buy it.

System is Vpi Prime on Finite Elemente Cerabase Classic footers, double belted, with ext transformer/ motor control and gyroscope, Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cart, Vpi 10" 3D tone arm, Stillpoints LPI puck, Ayre 5/20 pre and power, WyWires interconnects, Shunyata Triton power management + power cables, Magico S3 speakers, Vicoustic acoustic treatment.

This is what I heard:

VPS with 100 Ohm cart load: loved the transparency very much and the top and bottom extension, really beautiful. Details, clarity, great bass extension. Almost perfect, but upper mid/ lower highs frequencies a bit recessed, to an extent that you almost do not hear the subtle snare on 'Drum Solo' on Manu Katchés Live in Paris album. Bass weight also a bit on the light side, despite reaching really deep. Sound almost SS type, crisp and taut, nevertheless with some liquidity on Sax pieces. Overall maybe a bit flat though, grand piano lacks dimension on Diana Krall's "Errand Girl For Rhythm". I also noticed I had to turn up the Ayre pre about 15% more and listen a bit louder to get a good sound.

VPS with 330 Ohm cart load: Sound got very warm, very tubey. Great colors and texture, but unfortunately it lost its snap. All in all a tad muddy, lacking the transparency as with the earlier load.

In comparison the EAR was much more balanced, with fuller bass compared to both loads, liquid mids with great colors, nice definition and good extension in the highs. Also better dynamics all in all. Comparable to 100 Ohm load in transient speed, but much faster than the Nagra with the 330 Ohm load. I really liked it with the 100 Ohm load, but some frequencies being almost inaudible is a challenge. So far, in a summary, surprisingly the EAR offered the more balanced sound and the better listening experience for 1/4 of the price of the Nagra. Maybe the solution is to go higher up in the EAR range, instead to the Nagra. I wanted the Nagra to be better, but it appears Tim de Paravincini also knows what he is doing.

Reasons for the findings? System synergy I guess. Ortofon carts tend to be cooler and a good match with the warm and fast, but potentially a bit soft in the bass EAR phono pre.

I'm going to test tomorrow again, because I have a hard time believing what I just concluded. Let's see whether I do get a different result, will report back.


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I've heard that EAR. It's a giant killer. What makes it so special is the custom wound step up transformers inside it (and yes tim knows what he's doing too). I've even tried the EAR MC4 step up with the Nagra VPS via it's MM input. Very special combination.

One question, are you still using SS+Tubes? If so, I don't think you're hearing the Nagra at it's best. I'd try Trans+tubes (based on your ortofon description I'd say this is the best configuration for you) then Trans+tubes+SS. This should yield it's best sound when using a moving coil. The Nagra also has very special step up transformers-but they sound less warm than the EAR.

It also maybe exactly what you're saying...you like the warmer EAR vs the more neutral Nagra. And what you like is what counts !

They only thing I don't quite get is the 330ohm load should be more alive and snappy. The 100ohm is a higher damping-it's almost like you're describing the loading opposite of what it should be...

I've never head the better EARs...but my experience with the EAR MC4 was awesome...

 

[Kuoppis]

Detail test - Transient speed and dynamics, frequency range, bass extension. Brand new, audiophile test vinyl used to demo the new CAT high-end series at AXPONA: Chasing The Dragon/ Various Artists.

Test done in listening session playing same piece multiple times with one phono pre at a time, taking notes and then comparing. With VPS switched back to 100 Ohm cart load from 330 Ohm, as latter was a definitive no-go. Both preamps powered with a Shunyata power cord into a Triton, the VPS of course with its ext power supply in between.

Orchestra "Pirates of The Caribbean"

- VPS: Very nice detail, snappy transients but with slight lack of impact, good pressure on the horns, orchestra crescendo however not reaching full impact, good detail on violins. Percussion somewhat recessed, snare lacks the pop a bit sounding slightly soft. Bass very impressive with great detail retrieval. Overall, really nice.
- EAR: Slightly forward presentation, with nice presentation of details, incl. rolling of the snare. Brass with slight glare and not fully extended vibrato. Crescendos produced with impact, fast transients but not delivering the very finest micro detail in quick dynamic rise.

Also other music was used in the comparison, but with not all details recorder here.

Conclusion: The EAR sounds fuller, more fleshed out. Details are there, but not always entirely crisp and clear. In comparison the Nagra is more refined with better nuances in micro details. On a first listen the EAR appears to win, but going into details the Nagra has more long term potential due to its clearer and more natural presentation. The challenge for me personally is that the VPS needs to be played louder for the sound to form and that does not suit my preferences ideally.

Questions arising: With the EAR delivering the tube candy with more immediacy, but the Nagra being better in the micro details it is kind of a tie of a sort. So, changing from the EAR to Nagra I win some to lose some. Might hence a change of strategy make sense, to admit the fragile low sensitivity MC details are best retrieved by transistors? E.g. by the just released and already favorably reviewed Octave EQ.2 phono pre. That would however require to add the tube sweetness at another point into the system, most obviously through the preamp.

Currently I am however just not yet willing to compromise on the Ayre KX-5/20 just yet. Trying our an ARC Phono 6 or exchanging my pre to the ARC SP-20 has crossed my mind though.


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[tunes]

They only thing I don't quite get is the 330ohm load should be more alive and snappy. The 100ohm is a higher damping-it's almost like you're describing the loading opposite of what it should be....

I was noting the same thing. Did you use the 1k as opposed to 100 ?
You could try other load modules.

As jfrech has mentioned, typically the higher the load module, the more open, airy top end. You can experiment till you find the right balance. Manufacturer's recommended loading is just that, recommended. System specifics play into the equation - like tonearm wire characteristics, etc.


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[Kuoppis]

I've heard that EAR. It's a giant killer. What makes it so special is the custom wound step up transformers inside it (and yes tim knows what he's doing too). I've even tried the EAR MC4 step up with the Nagra VPS via it's MM input. Very special combination.

One question, are you still using SS+Tubes? If so, I don't think you're hearing the Nagra at it's best. I'd try Trans+tubes (based on your ortofon description I'd say this is the best configuration for you) then Trans+tubes+SS. This should yield it's best sound when using a moving coil. The Nagra also has very special step up transformers-but they sound less warm than the EAR.

It also maybe exactly what you're saying...you like the warmer EAR vs the more neutral Nagra. And what you like is what counts !

They only thing I don't quite get is the 330ohm load should be more alive and snappy. The 100ohm is a higher damping-it's almost like you're describing the loading opposite of what it should be...

I've never head the better EARs...but my experience with the EAR MC4 was awesome...

Thank you for sharing you experiences, that is very interesting. Just added some more testing results. Not a straight forward conclusion.

I guess the EAR is quite good as well, but the Nagra might be a tad more refined. But also as you say, like any great component it also needs to be optimised to perform at its best.

Of course adding the MC4 might do the trick, but I am hesitating, as the Nagra has been designed to play with low to medium MCs. That would also increase the cost into another category, which then brings up other alternatives.

Interesting, but in my book no easy and quick conclusion yet.

 

[Kuoppis]

I was noting the same thing. Did you use the 1k as opposed to 100 ?
You could try other load modules.

As jfrech has mentioned, typically the higher the load module, the more open, airy top end. You can experiment till you find the right balance. Manufacturer's recommended loading is just that, recommended. System specifics play into the equation - like tonearm wire characteristics, etc.


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Maybe I need to experiment more, but with the 330 vs. the 100 I clearly preferred the 100.

The 330 was definitely much fuller sounding and colorful, but with the higher load the VPS lost the virtues I appreciated with the 100 load.

I was also cross referencing with my digital system to gauge where I am sound wise. The EAR has also a bit fuller sound compared to the Meitner with the highs however being a bit more lively.

Might also be the overall chain or just my personal preferences.

 

[audioholic]

Congratulations!!!. I'm really a big Nagra follower. VPS + VFS is at the top of my wish list.

Thanks to all the people sharing their experiences with VPS.