- Thread Author
- #1
How much do you think the type, model, version, whatever of the DAC chip influences the sound?
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How much does the DAC chip influence the sound?
- Thread starter Mike
- Start date
Hi Mike,
I do think that different brands of DAC chips have different sonic signatures (i.e. AKM, Burr Brown & ESS Sabre) due to different algorithms. The newer versions also tend to have lower noise levels and distortion. However, I believe the DAC's analog gain stage has a much greater influence on overall sound than the DAC chip.
Best,
Ken
I do think that different brands of DAC chips have different sonic signatures (i.e. AKM, Burr Brown & ESS Sabre) due to different algorithms. The newer versions also tend to have lower noise levels and distortion. However, I believe the DAC's analog gain stage has a much greater influence on overall sound than the DAC chip.
Best,
Ken
Colin
New member
I would say the overall implementation and design of the dac would have a far greater influence than just the chip itself.
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Golum
Member
Could not agree more with Ken!
If this part of the story is done in a proper manner it influences the sound dramatically.
Below are the pictures of DAC which is fully balanced where I/A conversion is done in discrete class A technology using J-FETs...BB1794 DAC
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Hi Ken.
That seems true, but do not underestimate the importance of the purely digital part, Linn seems to maintain the stage of analog gain with its Lahaundall transformers, and yet the new Klimax Katalyst I read that are a great leap forward in the sound with its new chip And other improvements in the circuits.
Regards
- Thread Author
- #6
Don't you find similarities in sound across DAC chips regardless of the implementation?
SABRE
Wolfson
AKM
Burr Brown
Cyrus Logic
Etc.
For example, if I see a "Wolfson" DAC chip used, I'm confident it's going to sound very analog like.
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SABRE
Wolfson
AKM
Burr Brown
Cyrus Logic
Etc.
For example, if I see a "Wolfson" DAC chip used, I'm confident it's going to sound very analog like.
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still-one
Active member
I would lean towards your conclusion. There are several variables that contribute to the sound of any DAC.
Apart from the digital implementation of the dac, the analog implementation is just as important to maximise a dac's potential.
Recently, I upgraded the analog interconnects between the pre- and power amps, and that alone completely elevated the sound of my dac to another level.
The dac's analog design and implementation together with the rest of the analog components in the chain determine very significantly the actual sound of a dac.
What about the No-Chips, like Chord, Lampi, MSB, dCS, TotalDac, etc?
rah50
New member
Just had my W4S DAC2 DSDse upgraded to v2 model, chip from the ES9018 to the ES9038Pro. Basically only just a pin compatible chip swap. Sounds significantly better, more presence, body and detail. So, yes, the chip only can make quite a difference.
audio.bill
Active member
Congrats on the DAC upgrade, but with all due respect the new ES9038PRO is not a direct swap for the older ES9018. The ES9028PRO is but the ES9038PRO is much more advanced and not pin compatible. That explains why several manufacturers are upgrading to the ES9028PRO since it's such an easy substitution.
rah50
New member
audio.bill
Active member
Interesting that EJ said that, since on the ESS product announcement for the ES9038PRO there is no mention of it being compatible with the older DACs, but does state that "The ES9028PRO and ES9026PRO are pin-compatible upgrades for previous generation ESS products—the ES9018S and ES9016S" which kind of implies that the 9038 isn't. In any case early reports from users about the new v2 W4S DACs are very positive, so congrats again and enjoy the tunes! :audiophile:
rah50
New member
Here is a quote from EJ that contains some interesting info on this subject:
"Now that we’ve finalized our updates to the new DAC-2v2SE upgrade, we wanted to post a recap on things. Please refer to our original post #1411 in this thread for some background on what the issues were (specifically with DSD playback) and what we found to be the causes. In short, the sonic anomalies that could manifest themselves with DSD playback were attributable to an undisclosed register which erroneously set itself. This was coupled with the heat from the new 9038PRO chip based on placement of the DAC-2 and room temperatures it was exposed to. It should be noted that we worked with the lead designer of the 9038PRO directly on these issues, and that our original implementation was within data sheet specifications.
The undisclosed register was easy to reprogram. Once we were given the correct information, the playback issues resulting from that error went away (swooshing sound at startup and sporadic throughout some tracks).
The heat issue was interesting to find. The ESS data sheet states that the 9038 is a pin-compatible replacement for the 9018, and the exposed pad on the 9038 ”can be left open, connected to digital or analog ground. Internally connected to substrate via a conductive epoxy”, to quote ESS. Our 9038 chip implementation operated completely within acceptable temperature range, however, we found that once it reached a certain temperature after playing consecutive DSD tracks the sound would develop artifacts reminiscent of a noisy transistor. Adding to this, we found that the provided specs noted a MCLK far less than what is required for higher rate playback such as DSD256. With higher rates comes higher current demand and with that comes heat.
Our solution was a custom heatsink, made in-house with our CNC machine. See the images below. You can see how large the heatsink is, this was purposefully made to ensure proper cooling within a chassis that doesn’t have much moving air. Natural convection cooling is not very efficient so the heatsink disperses it over a large area. Together, with a more efficient 5v regulator we are now using, the result is a much cooler running product that is actually cooler than the previous DAC-2 DSDse!"
Again, I only know what they tell me!
YuriKorzunov
New member
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2015
- Messages
- 66
As core component, that is primary analog signal generator in a scheme, DAC chip define the best possible sound of the scheme.
Other components (PSU, amplifiers, filters, etc.) can degrade sound only. Their task is minimal degree of degradation of own DAC chip sound.
Example #1:
DAC chip give the best sound on ideal DC (electrical current). But DC defined by power supply unit (PSU). Therefore for the best sound need provide DC pulsations close to zero.
Hence PSU can't improve sound of DAC chip, but can degrade it, if DC will contains any pulsations/noise.
Example #2:
If DAC have non-linear distortions, we can't reduce it.
However, we can play with DAC chip outside.
As example, DAC give non-linear distortions, that lead to intermodulations and rising audible products by ultrasound in 0 ... 20 kHz range. In this case, we can limit band of digital stream and reduse the audible products.
Example #3:
Analog filter important part for suppressing digital-analog conversion aliases.
For ideal apparatus these aliases is not matter, except reducing useful dynamic range. But the aliases may generate products in audible range, like previous example. Though, limiting of band of digital stream reduse audible products by aliases. Because there aliases rest in highest frequency range of sample rate band, where analog filter have maximal suppressing (in frame used sample rate).
Of course, analog filter can't reduse the DAC chip's distortions. Analog filter should provide minimal dispersion of amlitude and maximal linearity of phase in audible band.
CPP
Active member
The DAC chip is only a piece of the equation. There is more in that "device that is necessary to produce a sound than a DAC chip like good design, good engineering and well made supporting components. . Like a guitar it's useless without strings.
Nikhil
Member
To my knowledge there is one parameter which is dependent on the DAC chip ... Dynamic Range.
Overall I agree that implementation and analog output stage design are key.
But you do need a decent DAC chip to begin with.
Overall I agree that implementation and analog output stage design are key.
But you do need a decent DAC chip to begin with.
YuriKorzunov
New member
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2015
- Messages
- 66
And THD. And noise floor. And frequency / phase response. And impulse response.
audio.bill
Active member
This may seem obvious to many but to be clear each of these parameters are not determined by the DAC selection alone, as they are further impacted by power supply factors, analog stage implementation, clock accuracy, etc.