Has Jim Smith discovered a magic formula for placing speakers correctly?

I've bounced between setup methods over the years; formulas, etc... and have settled on Jim Smith's as my best approach. I used his book (initially), then DVDs, and gained additional value from a Straight Talk session with Jim. Particularly, he was knowledgeable of my speakers and had good info on starting points based on several factors.
 
What amazes me is that discussions about system setup get very little love on audio forums. Working with the room is the most important aspect of getting great sound but all people want to talk about is equipment. This very short thread is case in point.
 
The key point I have taken from Jim’s experience is to find your listening position first. It makes so much sense and is obvious after you do it. Of course it’s not always easy for those that do not have dedicated rooms.
 
NorthStar said:
The room dictates the sound character, the speaker's positioning the imaging/soundstage, the gear the paint, the music the taste of the listener. We love simplicity, we love to play.

:)
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So many think that chucking "room correction DSP" at the problem, solves the matter. It doesn't and worse, this heavy-duty signal processing does no favours to the top end, even though the top end is not normally adjusted. DSP, if built into a full-range amp takes away some of the excitement factor from the music, in my experience. Better by far to call Jim Smith for expert setting up.
 
Hear Here said:
So many think that chucking "room correction DSP" at the problem, solves the matter. It doesn't and worse, this heavy-duty signal processing does no favours to the top end, even though the top end is not normally adjusted. DSP, if built into a full-range amp takes away some of the excitement factor from the music, in my experience. Better by far to call Jim Smith for expert setting up.
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Excellent point.
 
The challenge I’m grappling with is that I can’t move the listening position further back more than a few inches, and I can’t get the speakers closer together than around 8.5 feet (furniture in between). Can’t figure out how to get close to that magic #.
 
Hear Here said:
So many think that chucking "room correction DSP" at the problem, solves the matter. It doesn't and worse, this heavy-duty signal processing does no favours to the top end, even though the top end is not normally adjusted. DSP, if built into a full-range amp takes away some of the excitement factor from the music, in my experience. Better by far to call Jim Smith for expert setting up.
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I agree with stereo analog sources in a stereo sound setup room. Hi-fi stereo @ its very best; the room acoustics with treatments and judicious intelligent speaker's placement.

* For home theater with multichannels for cohesion of all sound's direction and homogeneity some Trinnov Altitude 32 or Dirac Live is permissible and beneficial. It's not easy to calibrate four subwoofers or more with eleven or more channels (speakers). So some digital crunching DSP comes a long way since Top Gun 1986.
 
My experience with DSP has been revelatory.

My use of DSP (convolution filters in ROON) has improved every aspect of playback In my room. Dynamics, imaging, Timing and of course, solid and clear low frequencies.

I have no doubt an expert like Jim could improve on what I have achieved without DSP but very confident new filters added to his placement would improve it further.
 
NorthStar said:
I agree with stereo analog sources in a stereo sound setup room. Hi-fi stereo @ its very best; the room acoustics with treatments and judicious intelligent speaker's placement.

* For home theater with multichannels for cohesion of all sound's direction and homogeneity some Trinnov Altitude 32 or Dirac Live is permissible and beneficial. It's not easy to calibrate four subwoofers or more with eleven or more channels (speakers). So some digital crunching DSP comes a long way since Top Gun 1986.
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That's how I regard room correction DSP. It really shouldn't be necessary with 2 channel systems. To people who have bought speakers with inadaquate bass and think adding subs is the solution and then can't get this complex system set up properly without resorting to DSP, I say no - get youself the speakers you should have bought in the first place - ones that DO provide decent bass.

For AV guys who inevitably have complex speakers systems there's arguably less need for ultimate sound, as their brains are more involved in processsing the video element and so DSP is more acceptable. Music lovers' brains are soley procesing sound and therefore more fussy regarding audio. That's my theory anyway! Peter
 
The problem with the EQ/DSP in general is very simple - tt can fix something, but not without a cost. It "kills" the transparency, dynamics, resolution... Even the best DSPs lose that last nuance in hi-end sound.

If you don't hear it - great. And I really mean it - without any sarcasm.

So far, I haven't heard any DSP processing which is applied on one part of the frequency range that doesn't affect the signal on completely different frequency range. Even when correction is limited only to frequencies bellow the Schroeder frequency - it affects everything. And I had or tried almost all - Dirac, ARC, Room Perfect, Acourate, Trinnov, Audyssey. YPAO, MCACC, AccuEQ and of course, manual PEQs (including aforementioned Roon). I've also listened to a lot of active speakers with and without DSP. Once I used to think that active speakers with DSP are the end game for every audiophile.

The higher the quality of the system - the easier to hear the artifacts.

One of my main reasons to buy Devialet Expert was the complete set of options for "perfect" subwoofer(s) integration and optimization in stereo system. In the end - I gave up using high-pass filter. Despite the fact that it's one of the most transparent I've ever heard - it's just not 100% transparent.

At the moment, I find DSP good enough only for subwoofers.

BTW, if someone has knowledge and resources to make the ultimate digital crossover and DSP in fully digital active speaker - that would be Alon Wolf and Magico.

And yet, Magico ultimate speaker - M9 which costs $750k - is passive.

M9 has active crossover which is fully analog (no DSP!) only for the lowest bass - fixed at 120 Hz - all other crossovers are passive.
 
What is written below is true of some and possibly many different DSP techniques and devices however it is not true of all. Anyone who has
ever visited my system can attest to that fact. I use a very advanced form of DSP based upon Boehmer's intellectual capital as wrapped up
and implemented in the Legacy Audio Wavelet. Dynamics you say? Stop over here,....you will have them.

There is NO loss of dynamics and other attributes as cited as having occurred with other simple and more complex DSP tools. Anyone who doubts
that need only get in touch, and I will gladly show you in person dynamics from the faintest whisper levels to full-on dynamics. Perhaps Craig, Jeff,
Buck, Jim or others who have been here in the last year will care to comment.

DSP or full-on "Room Correction" like that implemented in the Legacy/Bohmer platform or the EIKON Audio/Bohmer OEM implementation (or anything else
for that matter), should NEVER be used until you GET THE FUNDAMENTALS RIGHT including SPEAKER POSITIONING!!! The common misconception I've faced
is that some have said that in my case I can just slap a pair of Legacy speakers down anywhere I want with little care for perfect placement, seating position
choice, etc... and then just turn on Room Correction and it will fix all ills.

This is blatantly wrong....while doing so would catch many things and make them better to a lesser or greater degree, there is NO REPLACEMENT for
getting speaker and seating positioning right as with any fully passive speaker FIRST before pulling out any mics, shooting the room response and letting
a room correction algorithm go to work. I spend countless hours on traditional speaker placement and tweaking and listen to my speakers passive, no
Room Correction and attempt to get them 'perfect' before ever using the corrective algorithms.

With regard to the point that Alon Wolf and Magico have the knowledge and resources to do DSP/Active speakers well,....the folks at Magico are clearly gifted
and know how to build great {!} speakers. To state the premise that the fact they don't do that, even with the M9, as some sort of de facto proof that doing so
is inferior (implied by the text) is honestly IMHO, not valid logic whatsoever.

You can add the folks at Meridian to the short list of folks who have proven they can do fully active DSP speakers well and more so, Bill Dudleston of Legacy
and Bernt Bohmer of Bohmer Audio to the list of those that have the knowledge and resources as well as having actually proven it in real offerings.
 
I've used DSP with some pretty spectacular results on studio monitors (Genelec's) in my recording studio.

To Here Here's point though, I hesitate to insert it into my main hifi system for fear adding a digital system in the chain of my main system that I try to keep as simple as possible will adversely affect the little parts of the sound that to me make is musical and organic vs just having good frequency response.
 
MichaelsMinute said:
I've used DSP with some pretty spectacular results on studio monitors (Generic's) in my recording studio.

To Here Here's point though, I hesitate to insert it into my main hifi system for fear adding a digital system in the chain of my main system that I try to keep as simple as possible will adversely affect the little parts of the sound that to me make is musical and organic vs just having good frequency response.
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Another fine speaker system....purpose-built for the studio world and delivers great sound.

I had the same fear for most of my audio career viz. injecting any additional digital step A->D and then downstream an additional D->A step after the algorithms were run; the little juicy wonderful bits of the sound that result in the most musical and organic results won't be washed out if you utilize the right platform of which the Legacy/Bohmer or EIKON/Bohmer are 2 fine examples.
 
> The problem with the EQ/DSP in general is very simple - tt can fix something, but not without a cost. It "kills" the transparency, dynamics, resolution... Even the best DSPs lose that last nuance in hi-end sound.

> The higher the quality of the system - the easier to hear the artifacts.

I agree with both points. However, if EQ/DSP is applied to the bass only (after active crossover), the problem you mention can be avoided as the top end can reach its amplifier unmolested by this DSP. Only the bass with its own amp will be subject to DSP and that's the area where poor room acoustics may call for this - but only after all other options are exhausted.

Speakers such as Avantgarde’s XD Series achieve this by including DSP in their bass enclosures / amps, but sadly AG don't provide the software or mic to measure and adjust. They provide a "straight-line" software where the line can easily be tailored to compensate for response curves you have to measure yourself. Martin Logan's newer hybrid speakers offer a more user-friendly method by supplying a calibrated mic and Anthem software to take measurements and make adjustments, effectively in one go. In both cases, the mid and top frequencies reach their drivers / panel without any unnecessary signal processing.
 
A common misconception is that the only problems that should have DSP / Corrective algorithms applied is bass as it is somehow safer to do so
and less detrimental to the overall sound. The usual extension of that thought is that room treatments (diffusion, absorbers, etc...) are then used
with no reservations for that approach to focus also on the "non bass" bands all the way up.

I am not saying room treatments are not good nor am I saying they are not necessary, only laying out an overall thought basis to precede the following:

The problem with speaker response and system response in general is not just with bass as we know and more importantly,
is not a 2-dimensional or even only a 3-dimensional problem.

It is a 4-dimensional problem:

- Frequency
- Phase
- Amplitude
- TIME, i.e. the behavior of the waves that emerge from speaker drivers and as they propagate in space after the initial wave-launch, particularly in the first 5ms - 50ms or 60ms and they
interact with room boundaries and start bouncing back and bouncing around the room

The premise of the Bohmer technology itself is that if you determine the ideal target function for behavior of the speaker and each of its driver groups (by major frequency bands) and you
measure the actual behavior of the speaker in the room from t=1ms forward that you can determine how the room (furniture, wall hangings, the room itself...) is affecting the playback
of the speaker. Those samples are analyzed and used to compute new coefficients for wave-launch by each driver in the system to correct issues BEFORE they occur in the room.

I am giving a poor synopsis at a very high level to a vastly sophisticated use of real-time signal analysis and computing power in order to keep this brief.

This, at least to me is the most critical benefit of the Bohmer approach to this problem in that room treatments and other techniques do not compensate for the 4th dimension,
behavior of the sound waves over time...room treatments are reacting to the problem and trying to treat it (in 2 dimensions, not even 3) versus trying to solve the problem at its source.

I just think that something more is needed.

My apologies that my responses to this topic have further taken this thread down a tangent.

Going back to my points above, good speaker placement is the fundamental baseline we need regardless of DSP, no-DSP, etc...

I am going to read up on Jim Smith's latest and see how my current room can benefit from it using passive-speaker listening and the techniques he covers.
 
Probably true Craig.... :-)

One last comment to this statement:

"It "kills" the transparency, dynamics, resolution... Even the best DSPs lose that last nuance in hi-end sound."

A simple and respectful "No! Let me know when you want to stop by for some great music with all those attributes intact."
 
Thanks for the invite, but unfortunatelly I live too far from you. Otherwise, I would be very pleased.

Being involved in hi-fi for quite some time, I had a numerous occasions to listen to Linn Klimax 350A (old and new with Organik DACs - owned by my good friend), Legacy Audio Aeris (with Wavelet), B&O BeoLab 90, Kii Audio Three (with and without BXT), Dutch & Dutch 8c, new and old active Dynaudio Focus, quite a number of Genelec, Neumann, Dynaudio and similar studio speakers (I have a couple of friends who work in studio), quite a number of DIY active speaker projects with and without DSP... I've tried many different things in my own room, in my own system(s).

So, I'm speaking from my own experience. YMMV, of course.

And I repeat myself - I haven't heard DSP which doesn't introduce issues I've mentioned. I didn't say it doesn't exist. I will be VERY happy once I find it.

Some are better, some are worse. Aforementioned DSP in Roon is not good. I wouldn't use it in all but the worst rooms / with the worst acoustics and no other way to fix the issues.

For Dirac, Trinnov, ARC, Room Perfect... I can understand usage in HT/surround systems, but if possible I would avoid it - I would only equalize/optimize subwoofers.
 
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