Are subwoofers bad for music?

Yes the JL is probably faster than the SB16 Ultra, but that SB 16 Ultra is a great sub, their flagship product at $2,000. The problem with that e112 series from what I have seen is just the general reliability of the electronics. Looking at the reviews on Crutchfield it seems like there are several people who had issues with amp reliability, etc on that model JL. The Rhythmiks sound like a great value, I just wish they had a dealer network as I'm a little hesitant to try a new brand without seeing it/hearing it first.
 
Mr Peabody said:
Whatever sub you get will need to be very quick to keep up with the Volti. I would think JL was up to the task but sounds like that model may not be their best example. If the sub lags it will make integration that more difficult, if at all.
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As Jeremey said, he knows that the higher end JL Audios are phenomenal, and it's true. My JL Audio F112v2 subs are blisteringly fast, and they have DSP as well (by microphone calibration).
 
Crossover point and phase setting at the crossover point (often confirmed by checking for constructive or destructive interference) is only part of the story. The other setting that needs to be set is delay: either the speaker signal needs to be delayed or the subwoofer signal needs to be delayed, unless you can exactly place the subwoofer at the correct physical location which is going to create its own problems.

miniDSP has some instructions for measuring time delay between speakers. The instructions are a bit outdated as the Room EQ Wizard UI has been updated a few times since, but the general approach still works.

Also, setting the volume on the SB16-Ultra to -25 sounds about right.
 
Read the Sound Doctor's (Barry Ober) paper, and watch a few Dennis Foley videos on room acoustics and subs.


http://soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm


In essence, recordings on LP's deep bass is mono otherwise the needle would jump out of the grooves, and on CD's deep bass is mono because that's the way it is recorded and mixed. The exception is a few Techno-Rave tracks where the bass is supposed to swirl around the nightclub/dance floor (or so Barry says).


The author's of these documents neglect to mention Reel to Reel (Master Tapes) as I suppose they might disrupt their argument.


So bass is mono in the recording, it's directional because of room interfaces, and less directional as you free yourself of adjacent room surfaces.


I set up my room like the above diagram (unknown original source), and it works, it's the only thing that has ever worked for me.

Good video on getting the sub away from room boundaries.
https://www.acousticfields.com/ideal-subwoofer-placement-pressurization/


Lots of reading also lead me to believe the lesser of evils is using Low Line Level IC's inputs from a dual output preamp verses speaker wires to High Level Inputs.


Barry Ober says use a real crossover after the preamp and don't get upset about putting more stuff in your signal chain, if you only knew how much that signal has gone though in the recording process it would not be so precious to you.


Sorry, I got it to work to my satisfaction without another box and more wires.

I would not call my small room listening position "nearfield" however in regards to the subwoofer it is, and it works.

https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/kach22is-system.30259/

 

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kach22i said:
So you did, wish I saw that sooner, could have saved me a lot of time. :D
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:D:wave:

In audio we must try for ourselves.
But I always take into account when someone says that he has already done several experiencies (*) and concluded that ...
If we pay attention we can skip many steps. I wasted a lot of time trying the best position with the sub (**) because a lot of people say that the bass is omnidirectional and any place will do.
Even if when we listen to music we can´t say where the sub is, a bad placement can prevent you from reaching the full potential.


(*) To say that you read, or to transcribe someone's opinion, for me it is worth almost nothing.
(**) I have no issues with my room so I tend to assume as valid many of the conclusions that I reach.
 
The short answer is almost always, no. However, it takes more than a few hours and your ears to properly integrate subs. And you need good subs with the ability to adjust not just freq and amplitude but fully adjustable phase and ultra - low frequency control (ELF on JLA Fathoms for example). Without these controls it's almost impossible to definitively get a benefit without some detriment (bass bloat, exacerbate peaks, etc.). Even with all these controls most people give up because you need to measure and adjust over and over followed by your ears' approval. But when very good subs are integrated properly it's a whole new world of presence, dynamics, soundstage size and musical weight.
 
Hey Jeremey and others - I am working on a new ELF (Extended Low Frequency) system for use with all Volti Audio speakers, or any other speaker system for that matter. Available later this year. I've done preliminary testing on drivers/cabinets and I have the design figured out. Interestingly, during my messing about with all this, I also had the opportunity to hear a Rythmik sp? sub in my system and I was very impressed with it, especially considering the cost. Actually it was a amp/driver kit that I got from GR Research and built the test cabinet myself. In the end I chose a different driver/cabinet/amp combination for the Volti ELF system. I won't get into the reasons why here.

The current Volti Audio ELF cabinet that is used with the Vittora system is an unusual design that works well to integrate with the bass horn of the Vittora. It is a fairly large cabinet with an 18" driver. The new system will use two smaller cabinets with 12" drivers in each, with the same unconventional and unusual design. I like the idea of two ELF cabinets for the same reasons (advantages) others prefer to have two or more subwoofers in their room.

These smaller cabinets will appeal to some of my Rival customers who want to add that last little bit to the bottom end. The system will work the same as it does with the Vittora - not drawing attention to itself as a separate element in the system, and allowing the listener to hear/feel this extra bottom weight as though it is part of the musical image in front of them. Something that is very important to me for my own system.

Greg
 
Hey Greg, this is great to hear. In fact, I must admit there have been times when I've thought, man would it make sense to just buy an ELF for my Rivals? For me, with the cost of the amplification and the extra expense of needing 2 subwoofers, it hasn't been a serious consideration but if you put together something specifically for Rivals it would definitely pique my interest. My 2 D110 JLs are doing a great job right now but I will say that I have spent weeks if not months dialing in placement for them. I finally have ideal placement but it is not pretty - luckily it is behind my "art installation" of panels so they are not visible from the front. If there were a pair of Rival ELF cabinets in Bosse Cedar it would be impossible to "hide" them - they would need to be shown off, but they'd also need to be easy to place and this room is not nice... in fact no matter where I go in the room I have a massive suck out at 50Hz, which is why I have the JLs crossed over now at 60Hz. I believe I have pinned it down to the open doorway and stairwell I have which acts like a "sound chimney" and sucks that resonant frequency up the stairwell to ring the wall-mounted lamp I have at the top of the stairs LOL.

This is exciting news though, definitely keep everyone posted!

i-QhZhvrR-L.jpg


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The new ELF cabinets will be very pretty. And expensive!

Are you up for a $1,200 experiment? Buy two Rythmik L12 and try to get them located in front of the system, one on each side. I'd love to know what you think.

I only had one (not exactly that model, but very close) and it was really, really good. For the money, the performance can't be beat.

My new ELF cabinet design was better only because I was able to tune it to have the low-frequency roll-off that I prefer and it was completely unnoticeable because of that. The Rythmik sub, no matter how I played with the settings, still drew attention to itself a little bit.

Greg
 
Greg, that is very intriguing. I will consider that... right now the timing sucks as I just dropped over five figures on the Sigmas and PrimaLuna separates/monoblocks. Plus a couple thousand in tubes over the past 3 weeks, LOL. I will say this - when working with my JL Audio subs I tried every imaginable configuration with the subs on the sides of the speakers, inside the speakers, behind the speakers, pointing straight out, pointing backwards, etc. Every change I made I used an RTA and SPL meter to determine the bass levels and no matter what the optimal results in my room ended up being what they are now - the subs both against the wall pointing toward the outside wall. With proper phase settings that is giving me 5-8dB more bass than I initially experienced with the subs inside or outside of the speakers. I also dialed in volume-wise each of the subs to only about 9 o'clock on their volume knobs so they are (to me) invisible when it comes to the blend with the Rivals. You can definitely hear the sub bass if I am listening to bass-heavy dance music, etc but it does not stand alone from the Rivals, it is more like an extension of the woofer. I'm using a touch of DSP with a parametric EQ setting of +2.5dB at 48Hz to counter the negative impact of that stairwell to the right of my system. I should also clarify I am not bi-amping the Rivals with the Naim amp either - that was a short-lived experiment, haha.

Is it the direct servo technology that makes these Rhythmik subs different than the JLs? I am intrigued by this and would be interested in trying them out, but it probably won't be until spring (Q2) that I drop any more $$ on audio gear.
 
I think it worth mentioning, if it hasn't already, there are two, actually 3 types of bass - inferior, average or typical me-too, and superior/musical bass.

In the end it ought not matter how one gets there, but getting there is the hard part as it usually requires much time attempting to find a full-range speaker superior location within a given room that acoustically tunes the speaker to the room. If a speaker is truly full-range and truly dialed in, then it should only take one short listening session to realize a subwoofer is not needed. Unless there is a need for bass down below 20Hz say down to 15 or even 10Hz. I'd love to have my own bass go down to at least 15Hz but with current config and hardware I'm only able to realize 21 or 20Hz at most.

A similar time investment usually required when adding a sub. So adding a subwoofer also includes:

1. Dialing-in the sub positionally,
2. The numerous toggle switches and/or knobs at the sub that must be set to enhance any subwoofer positioning. My sub has about 10 such tuning switches and knobs.
3. Integrating the sub with the main speakers for a continuous rather than disjointed flow of lower frequencies. Including using interconnects that match sonic characteristics of ic's used elsewhre in the playback system, etc.
4. If employing more than one subwoofer, then I imagine things can get even more complicated.

A subwoofer's potential benefits are entirely up to enthusiast. If one is more interested in plug'n play and not put in the sweat equity, I'd suggest staying away from subwoofers because there's so much to get wrong. In contrast, if one is willing to perform due diligence, I'd embrace subwoofers because there so much to get right.

Even so the probabilities of aquiring a superior / musical bass increases with a set of truly full-range speakers optimally positioned and no subwoofer. It's easier, less costly, and cleaner (less clutter).
 
WRT "fast" and "slow" IME this has more to do with the ability of the sub's driver(s) to start and more importantly stop once the transient has passed. To do so you need to be able to control the driver(s) with ample power and a high damping factor along with driver(s) that are capable of responding very quickly. This also requires a quality and often robust motor structure along with quality construction (basket assy, cone / surround material, etc.). When aforementioned requirements are not met, we perceive it as "slow" but what we are hearing is the leading and more importantly the lagging edge of transients; the driver is not stopping when it should = ringing, distortion, poor quality. And if the sub itself has poor quality it will never integrate well with any mains.

Here's a quick example - take weight as a measure of quality (not a perfect measure but with powered subs, there is a direct relationship between weight and sub output quality IME). Since someone earlier compared JLA to SVS - A JL Audio F113 with a 13.5" driver weighs ~130lbs. An SVS SB4000 also with a 13.5" driver weighs ~100 lbs. Both employ cabinets made of MDF, are about the same size and are both sealed subs. Where does the extra 30lbs go? Primarily the driver. Also worth noting is even the SVS SB16 is ~120lbs, so even with a 16" driver the SVS is lighter than the 13.5" driver JLA F113. However the JLA Fathoms are more expensive. I find in audio, most of the time you get what you pay for ;-)
 
sb6 said:
WRT "fast" and "slow" IME this has more to do with the ability of the sub's driver(s) to start and more importantly stop once the transient has passed. To do so you need to be able to control the driver(s) with ample power and a high damping factor along with driver(s) that are capable of responding very quickly. This also requires a quality and often robust motor structure along with quality construction (basket assy, cone / surround material, etc.). When aforementioned requirements are not met, we perceive it as "slow" but what we are hearing is the leading and more importantly the lagging edge of transients; the driver is not stopping when it should = ringing, distortion, poor quality. And if the sub itself has poor quality it will never integrate well with any mains.

Here's a quick example - take weight as a measure of quality (not a perfect measure but with powered subs, there is a direct relationship between weight and sub output quality IME). Since someone earlier compared JLA to SVS - A JL Audio F113 with a 13.5" driver weighs ~130lbs. An SVS SB4000 also with a 13.5" driver weighs ~100 lbs. Both employ cabinets made of MDF, are about the same size and are both sealed subs. Where does the extra 30lbs go? Primarily the driver. Also worth noting is even the SVS SB16 is ~120lbs, so even with a 16" driver the SVS is lighter than the 13.5" driver JLA F113. However the JLA Fathoms are more expensive. I find in audio, most of the time you get what you pay for ;-)
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I can't really disagree with anything you said. Well, except for your last line anyway. Speed or quickness is quite important and cannot be overlooked. But before dialing in my Rythmik 15 sub, I never would have labled quickness among its attributes. In fact, before I dialed it in, I would not have labled much of anything positive except that it did allow the music presentation to go a few Hertz lower than just with my full-range main speakers. My sub weighs about 110 lbs. but I added about another 80 lbs. of mass loading for a noticeable improvement.

It seems rather difficult to fully appreciate the equipment we acquire without first spending some serious time with it.

Yes, most times we get what we pay for but regrettably high-end audio seems to be more the exception than the rule. Below is an example of a somewhat inferior recording with what I would consider a superior or musical bass with plenty of quickness, impact, and depth once dialed-in. It helps to crank up the volume a bit. :)

 
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