DSD vs PCM as compared to what?

**Myles B. Astor** · November 28, 2014, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Bachtoven

I used to be a recording engineer, and about 30 years ago I had the opportunity to record a very famous organist (Jean Guillou) in San Francisco's Grace Cathedral, which is modeled after Notre Dame. I normally used a Tandberg TD 20 reel deck, but I had just purchased Sony's new PCM processor, which recorded the signal onto a video recorder. I split the feed from my Studer mixer (the microphones were B&K 4006--today they are known as DPA 4006) and recorded on both simultaneously. The Sony had deeper bass and a little wider dynamic range, but the Tandberg provided greater texture and weight to the sound.

But truth be told, while the Tandberg was a good prosumer deck, it doesn't hold a candle to the pro Studers or Ampexes. Like most prosumer machines, the electronics leave a lot to be desired. And if not properly aligned, the bass will certainly suffer.

Did you record at 71/2 or 15 ips on the Tandberg?

**Bachtoven** · November 28, 2014, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

But truth be told, while the Tandberg was a good prosumer deck, it doesn't hold a candle to the pro Studers or Ampexes. Like most prosumer machines, the electronics leave a lot to be desired. And if not properly aligned, the bass will certainly suffer.

Did you record at 71/2 or 15 ips on the Tandberg?

I also had a modified Revox Pr-99, and since I did primarily live location recording, hauling around a Studer A-80 would have been very impractical.

I had to use 7.5 ips since it was a concert and I couldn't very well change reels in the middle of a piece. Alignment was not a problem, as I checked it regularly.

**Myles B. Astor** · November 28, 2014, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Bachtoven

I also had a modified Revox Pr-99, and since I did primarily live location recording, hauling around a Studer A-80 would have been very impractical.

I had to use 7.5 ips since it was a concert and I couldn't very well change reels in the middle of a piece. Alignment was not a problem, as I checked it regularly.

That's why God made Nagras!

**tunes** · November 28, 2014, 02:13 PM

Amen

**Bachtoven** · November 28, 2014, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

That's why God made Nagras!

**FlexibleAudio** · November 29, 2014, 12:35 PM

Mike,

I know this comment may create a fire storm, but if we are going to get into a hair splitting discussion regarding formats I wonder if the PCM should be played on an MSB, Trinity or Berkeley Reference, etc. and the DSD on a PD, EMM, or Lampizator etc. to provide a more accurate result.

The S1 is phenomenal at it's price, but I think any definitive conclusions about format would be best measured in systems optimized toward the respective format's playback. It is extremely difficult IMO for a single DAC design to reach the true potential of both formats equally well......but of course I could be completely wrong.

**mep** · November 29, 2014, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Mike,

I know this comment may create a fire storm, but if we are going to get into a hair splitting discussion regarding formats I wonder if the PCM should be played on an MSB, Trinity or Berkeley Reference, etc. and the DSD on a PD, EMM, or Lampizator etc. to provide a more accurate result.

The S1 is phenomenal at it's price, but I think any definitive conclusions about format would be best measured in systems optimized toward the respective format's playback. It is extremely difficult IMO for a single DAC design to reach the true potential of both formats equally well......but of course I could be completely wrong.

Why should your comment "create a fire storm?" It makes perfect sense to me. The only question I have is who owns a DAC optimized for PCM and another DAC optimized for DSD and can give us their unbiased preference (is that an oxymoron?)?

Oh, and if something is "phenomenal at it's price," is it really phenomenal? Isn't that sort of like telling two-ton Tessie that for a fat girl she doesn't sweat much? Or as Frank would say, "Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho?"

**wisnon** · November 29, 2014, 01:05 PM

a few dacs out there have different dsd and pcm engines in the same chassis.

**FlexibleAudio** · November 29, 2014, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by wisnon

a few dacs out there have different dsd and pcm engines in the same chassis.

Indeed, but I would speculate that some will find this approach sub-optimum.

**Mike** · November 29, 2014, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Mike,

I know this comment may create a fire storm, but if we are going to get into a hair splitting discussion regarding formats I wonder if the PCM should be played on an MSB, Trinity or Berkeley Reference, etc. and the DSD on a PD, EMM, or Lampizator etc. to provide a more accurate result.

The S1 is phenomenal at it's price, but I think any definitive conclusions about format would be best measured in systems optimized toward the respective format's playback. It is extremely difficult IMO for a single DAC design to reach the true potential of both formats equally well......but of course I could be completely wrong.

Absolutely! Unfortunately I don't have those on hand. But I'm open to donations!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**FlexibleAudio** · November 29, 2014, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by mep

Why should your comment "create a fire storm?" It makes perfect sense to me. The only question I have is who owns a DAC optimized for PCM and another DAC optimized for DSD and can give us their unbiased preference (is that an oxymoron?)

Whom ever is going to give a truly meaningful opinion about the formats.

Originally Posted by mep

, and if something is "phenomenal at it's price," is it really phenomenal? Isn't that sort of like telling two-ton Tessie that for a fat girl she doesn't sweat much?

Exactly, wouldn't that be somewhat rare.

**Mike** · November 29, 2014, 02:12 PM

That being said, I doubt things would change. I've yet to hear a PCM only DAC that can compete with the best of the best PCM/DSD DAC's. But I have not heard the new Berkley.

If someone has a PCM only and a DSD only DAC AND R2R and same sources of each, they can refute my comparison.

Until then....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Myles B. Astor** · November 29, 2014, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

That being said, I doubt things would change. I've yet to hear a PCM only DAC that can compete with the best of the best PCM/DSD DAC's. But I have not heard the new Berkley.

If someone has a PCM only and a DSD only DAC AND R2R and same sources of each, they can refute my comparison.

Until then....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're 2/3rds of the way there!

**mep** · November 29, 2014, 02:38 PM

DSD wins. Next.

**FlexibleAudio** · November 29, 2014, 02:39 PM

Focussing on DAC's that can play only one format was not my point. Sorry if I was vague.

Just about every respectable DAC these days plays both, but that doesn't mean they play both formats at their best. (Conversions make up the difference.) Some are optimized for PCM first and DSD second, some are DSD first and PCM second, and some have two DAC's in one.

**FlexibleAudio** · November 29, 2014, 02:48 PM

Mike, just saying I would love to have your ears compare the MSB and Lampizator to tapes. IMO that would go a long way to putting the argument to bed. I still have my view (which is that at this level the formats are a push and I lean toward availability of titles), but I haven't heard the Lampizator. We gotta get you a couple of loaners.

**mep** · November 29, 2014, 03:01 PM

PCM isn't going to sound like tape. It's going to sound like PCM. If you love the sound of digital and hate analog, I'm sure PCM is the preferred format for those people (even if much of their PCM was sourced from analog). If you love the sound of analog recordings, the closest digital format to approaching the sound of analog is DSD that I'm aware of.

**FlexibleAudio** · November 29, 2014, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by mep

PCM isn't going to sound like tape. It's going to sound like PCM. If you love the sound of digital and hate analog, I'm sure PCM is the preferred format for those people (even if much of their PCM was sourced from analog). If you love the sound of analog recordings, the closest digital format to approaching the sound of analog is DSD that I'm aware of.

Well thats thoughtful, glad you cleared this up for the ages.

**Audioseduction** · November 29, 2014, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by mep

PCM isn't going to sound like tape. It's going to sound like PCM. If you love the sound of digital and hate analog, I'm sure PCM is the preferred format for those people (even if much of their PCM was sourced from analog). If you love the sound of analog recordings, the closest digital format to approaching the sound of analog is DSD that I'm aware of.

I disagree with that statement. PCM can sound very analog if it's executed properly and with very good equipment. mep, you need to listen to my system to hear what I'm talking about.

**Myles B. Astor** · November 29, 2014, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Mike, just saying I would love to have your ears compare the MSB and Lampizator to tapes. IMO that would go a long way to putting the argument to bed. I still have my view (which is that at this level the formats are a push and I lean toward availability of titles), but I haven't heard the Lampizator. We gotta get you a couple of loaners.

The answer is not necessarily comparing them but making A/D copies of the tape in both digital formats and then comparing them. I'm doing that with 4XDSD. So has David Robinson at PFO and people like Bruce Brown of Puget Sound Studios and Dave Wilson. It's no accident that Dave chose to remaster his tapes and play them back at shows using DSD. I could possibly also make 24/192 copies too like did for Jeff Joseph too.

**Myles B. Astor** · November 29, 2014, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Audioseduction

I disagree with that statement. PCM can sound very analog if it's setup properly and with very good equipment. mep, you need to listen to my system to hear what I'm talking about.

The question is not whether PCM sounds analog like. The question is does it sound like the tape?

**rbbert** · November 29, 2014, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

The question is not whether PCM sounds analog like. The question is does it sound like the tape?

I was about to post something like this, but more along the lines of which sounds more like live music? None of our current storage mechanisms/media manage this without some very noticeable problems. I do think that better DSD or PCM is more likely to manage this than better analog, though.

**FlexibleAudio** · November 29, 2014, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

The answer is not necessarily comparing them but making A/D copies of the tape in both digital formats and then comparing them. I'm doing that with 4XDSD. So has David Robinson at PFO and people like Bruce Brown of Puget Sound Studios and Dave Wilson. It's no accident that Dave chose to remaster his tapes and play them back at shows using DSD. I could possibly also make 24/192 copies too like did for Jeff Joseph too.

Myles, have you done a direct comparison of A/D copies of tape in both formats and compared them directly using DAC's optimized around playback of the respective format? Also, are you aware of the DAC's used by David, Bruce or Dave in their work. I just find it hard to believe that playback of PCM converted directly from tape on a full MSB Diamond (with Galaxy Clock) or a Trintiy DAC will not sound on par with 4XDSD.

Their is no question more poor PCM execution is spread throughout the market place than poor DSD because so much work has been done in PCM at low price points and this has reduced the quality many expect from PCM. The bad image suffered by PCM from the dark years of digital still has scared many in the business.

I am very familiar with Bruce and Dave's famous decisions to use DSD. I personally feel with the best DAC's both formats are marginally different but one is not better than the other; but I have not done this type of comparison personally and would love to be enlightened.

**mep** · November 29, 2014, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Well thats thoughtful, glad you cleared this up for the ages.

You're welcome and I did. What's that? Oh yes, you're welcome too ages.

**FlexibleAudio** · November 29, 2014, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by mep

You're welcome and I did. What's that? Oh yes, you're welcome too ages.

mep,

I hate to get off topic but I haven't had a lot of exposure to someone omniscient. It's pretty cool. Do you answer stock market questions? How about an S&P level in 2018 or something simple like a QE4 start date?

**mep** · November 29, 2014, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

mep,

I hate to get off topic but I haven't had a lot of exposure to someone omniscient. It's pretty cool. Do you answer stock market questions? How about an S&P level in 2018 or something simple like a QE4 start date?

Jan 2013

**FlexibleAudio** · November 29, 2014, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by mep

Jan 2013

Wow it works in the past too. You are amazing.

**mep** · November 29, 2014, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Wow it works in the past too. You are amazing.

You might want to check out Fidelity Select Transportation (FSRFX).

**FlexibleAudio** · November 30, 2014, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by mep

You might want to check out Fidelity Select Transportation (FSRFX).

I will short it on Monday and buy it when it hits bottom in 2009. Predicting the past is fun!

**Myles B. Astor** · November 30, 2014, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Myles, have you done a direct comparison of A/D copies of tape in both formats and compared them directly using DAC's optimized around playback of the respective format? Also, are you aware of the DAC's used by David, Bruce or Dave in their work. I just find it hard to believe that playback of PCM converted directly from tape on a full MSB Diamond (with Galaxy Clock) or a Trintiy DAC will not sound on par with 4XDSD.

Their is no question more poor PCM execution is spread throughout the market place than poor DSD because so much work has been done in PCM at low price points and this has reduced the quality many expect from PCM. The bad image suffered by PCM from the dark years of digital still has scared many in the business.

I am very familiar with Bruce and Dave's famous decisions to use DSD. I personally feel with the best DAC's both formats are marginally different but one is not better than the other; but I have not done this type of comparison personally and would love to be enlightened.

Working on it.

**FlexibleAudio** · November 30, 2014, 03:23 PM

Very cool Myles. I would love to hear your findings. (As an aside, any update on when you will be seeing Nick's phono pre..... Turkey Day has come and gone. I am anxious!

**Myles B. Astor** · November 30, 2014, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Very cool Myles. I would love to hear your findings. (As an aside, any update on when you will be seeing Nick's phono pre..... Turkey Day has come and gone. I am anxious!

Me too...have kinda given up asking.

**o0OBillO0o** · January 1, 2015, 03:59 AM

I want DSD to win.

Problem is pop (All Music) is PCM, as a recording and delivery format. Which isn't terrible.

The winner format is always, analog. So PCM vs DSD, as a delivery format, should be as compared to Analog or the live event. Pehaps, what we need is the recording industry to adopt DSD 5.6+ as the new master file or continue to move forward to the best analog recording and mastering practices? (To some extent DXD is a PCM solution)

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