Aurender N10

**bpw** · July 15, 2015, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Bryan, we still are not on the same page. What you refer too is an old school view on DSD and not the same in a chipless DSD dac which is the heart of my point. Answer my post above and then weigh in.

Chipless or not, you still have to make the filters, which is my point, but you have your preferences.

Paul, I invite you to bring your favorite DAC here to audition with an Aurender such as the N10, which will be on demo at this weekend's open house sessions with the Bricasti M1. Or try at home.

**bpw** · July 29, 2015, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Bryan, we still are not on the same page. What you refer too is an old school view on DSD and not the same in a chipless DSD dac which is the heart of my point. Answer my post above and then weigh in.

Paul,
I posed the matter to Jim Kinne of Exogal (he and Larry Jacoby, also of Exogal, founded Wadia Digital many years ago), and he replied:

The problem with trying to do a analog only reconstruction of a DSD stream is that there is no analog equivalent of noise shaping. You therefore need an analog filter with a very sharp cutoff. That is an extremely complex filter, especially if you don't want to introduce phase and/or edge distortion.

I hope that helps.

If you're in town this weekend come on by for the open house I'm holding, Saturday and Sunday, 1 to 5pm each day. The Aurender N10, Bricasti M1, Bricasti M28 monoblocks, and complete vinyl and CD playback systems will be on demo. If you already have weekend plans contact me for a personal audition here or in your home, and you are welcome to bring your DAC of preference.

**FlexibleAudio** · July 29, 2015, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by bpw

Paul,
I posed the matter to Jim Kinne of Exogal (he and Larry Jacoby, also of Exogal, founded Wadia Digital many years ago), and he replied:

The problem with trying to do a analog only reconstruction of a DSD stream is that there is no analog equivalent of noise shaping. You therefore need an analog filter with a very sharp cutoff. That is an extremely complex filter, especially if you don't want to introduce phase and/or edge distortion.

I hope that helps.

If you're in town this weekend come on by for the open house I'm holding, Saturday and Sunday, 1 to 5pm each day. The Aurender N10, Bricasti M1, Bricasti M28 monoblocks, and complete vinyl and CD playback systems will be on demo. If you already have weekend plans contact me for a personal audition here or in your home, and you are welcome to bring your DAC of preference.

Bryan by "analog only reconstruction of a DSD stream" I presume you are referring to the concept of a chipless DSD DAC architecture (i.e., filter only). The fact that the filters are complex doesn't mean those that have figure out how to execute this approach haven't come up with a sound that many prefer to PCM. Lampi is doing it with great success and Andreas Koch tells me his dacs convert DSD 64 to 128 and then go chipless (only because the noise is to great to filter at 64) but he is filter only at 128 and 256 which makes so many love his stuff. (For many the preference for filter only DSD is regardless of wether the material is native DSD or is DSD which has been converted from PCM).

**ekovalsky** · August 4, 2015, 03:02 AM

I'm very interested in a black N10 - it may be the perfect source for my somewhat atypical, DAC-less system. When will these be available in the USA ?

**Mike** · August 4, 2015, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by ekovalsky

I'm very interested in a black N10 - it may be the perfect source for my somewhat atypical, DAC-less system. When will these be available in the USA ?

I'll make a call and find out for you today.

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**Perfect Sense** · August 4, 2015, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by ekovalsky

I'm very interested in a black N10 - it may be the perfect source for my somewhat atypical, DAC-less system. When will these be available in the USA ?

N10 is available in black from the 1st of August.

**Mike** · August 4, 2015, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Hyperion

N10 is available in black from the 1st of August.

Yes, but there was not U.S. stock until this week. Thursday the shipment arrives.

**Perfect Sense** · August 4, 2015, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Yes, but there was not U.S. stock until this week. Thursday the shipment arrives.

Good for you

I've always been tempted by the black version of the W20 myself.

**bpw** · August 4, 2015, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Hyperion

Good for you

I've always been tempted by the black version of the W20 myself.

Black W20 and silver N10 here. Most people opt for silver, but each has its appeal. The shipment mentioned is to Aurender's sales and distribution center in Burbank, CA.

**ekovalsky** · August 4, 2015, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by bpw

Black W20 and silver N10 here. Most people opt for silver, but each has its appeal. The shipment mentioned is to Aurender's sales and distribution center in Burbank, CA.

Yes I specifically wanted to black to match my existing gear. It seems like silver is more popular among most brands of late. I've generally bought black equipment. I think I bought my first 'high end' audio system - a bunch of black SAE gear with lots of LED lights, VMPS Super Tower IIA/R speakers, and Kimber cables - when I was in college in the late 1980's. It was pretty sweet rig back in the day lol.

I believe I purchased the original Slim Devices Transporter back in 2006 or so, before Logitech acquired and subsequently neglected and ultimately abandoned the Squeeze lineup - pretty sad since it was the breakthrough product that really defined this whole segment. I subsequently had the Transporter modified by Aberdeen/MauiDan, and it is a good sounding unit that led me to sell some pretty high end CD transports. It will be interesting to see how much improvement the penultimate offering from Aurender's 2015 lineup will bring.

By the way I spoke today with the distributor for Ayon, who is local to me, and I may be able to get a NW-T in here to compare. It is a different beast than the Ayon, eschewing internal storage but adding wifi, a more consumer-oriented front display with cover art, and a handheld remote; I believe it is controlled by 3rd party apps rather than a dedicated one like Surender's.

**RLL1** · November 4, 2015, 02:06 PM

Other than the Aurender dealers we have here, does anyone own the N10. If so, what are your thoughts.

**Bobolaclune** · November 4, 2015, 02:35 PM

I have one Rick , an excellent piece . I already own the X100L so I was familiar with the interface and the GUI on the app, which are outstanding. I needed a streamer that could simultaneously feed 3 different DACs that I have and this was the only one that fit the bill. Love it .

**bigblue** · November 4, 2015, 03:17 PM

Bobolaclune, how would you describe the differences between the N10 and X100 when it comes ot SQ?

**RLL1** · November 5, 2015, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Bobolaclune

I have one Rick , an excellent piece . I already own the X100L so I was familiar with the interface and the GUI on the app, which are outstanding. I needed a streamer that could simultaneously feed 3 different DACs that I have and this was the only one that fit the bill. Love it .

That's good to hear. The N10 has been on my radar since it was introduced, but I really like my Bryston BDP. Oh what to do??

**soundslikemusic** · November 7, 2015, 09:21 PM

i had an x100 and it was great, down the line, thinking of the N10-- has anyone compared the two ?? thanks for the inputs.

**preproman** · November 13, 2015, 09:22 AM

Hi All,

I'm new to this form. I joined to give Brian Walsh at Essential Audio a Big Shout Out

and a thank you for letting me do a home demo of the Aurender N10. I'm loving every minute of it. This is a serious piece of kit.

The user interface is outstanding. I only have a couple of issues with it. None of them are technical, just being a J. River user I'm use to seeing my library a certain way.

1. No cover art and very little metadata is displayed when using your music files off a NAS or external HDDs.
2. When you select Genre you have the choice of views: Details (list) or cover art. However, when you select Artist you only get the Detail list - no choice to show the cover art.

That's it. Technical wise - it just works. I will send Aurender an Email asking them about this.

So far I love the coolness of it, adding it to my network was easy, the user interface on the iPad is great. Added my NAS with music folders with ease. Navigating around the app is easy and cool as well, mounting the internal drives to add music is just a few quick steps. The integration with Tidal is great and easy to use. Looking out for the integration for ROON.

Sound wise vs. my Custom Music PC based on the C.A.P.S. Hard to tell if it really gives me any more SQ than I'm all ready getting. However, saying that. The SQ is absolutely great. No faults anywhere That I hear. DSD sounds great, PCM sounds great and it renders what ever you through at it with ease.

Needless to say - I'll be getting one of these in Black.

I know of someone that's very interested in the Lumin S1 / A1. They come with a DAC and analog outputs. That way you don't have to worry about things like USB - For me that too restrictive, to be stuck with that DAC. Having the N10 allows you to change DACs if you want to.

**joeinid** · November 13, 2015, 02:45 PM

Welcome to the forum preproman!

**Mike** · November 13, 2015, 02:56 PM

Welcome preproman. The Aurender N10 is a fantastic piece if you want to swap DAC's. It sounds great out of the box and just gets better. When I met with Harry Lee, President of Aurender yesterday, he showed me the upcoming releases for the app and it's fantastic! Aurender also has some other goodies up their sleeve. Stay tuned.

**preproman** · November 13, 2015, 03:28 PM

Does anyone know how the Lumin app compares to the Aurender app?

**RLL1** · November 13, 2015, 03:35 PM

My N10 just arrived! Its a cold day today, so I am letting it get to room temperature before I turn it on. Looks like my plans for this evening have been decided.

**Mike** · November 13, 2015, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by RLL1

My N10 just arrived! Its a cold day today, so I am letting it get to room temperature before I turn it on. Looks like my plans for this evening have been decided.

Congrats! Did you buy from Mark in Toronto? Keep us posted on your progress! Pics too please!!

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**bpw** · November 13, 2015, 10:29 PM

Hey Darryl,
Thanks for the kind words, and glad to hear you're having lots of fun.

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance at any time.

**asiufy** · November 14, 2015, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by preproman

Does anyone know how the Lumin app compares to the Aurender app?

They are very different. The Lumin UI is slicker, and overall, more intuitive. For instance, acessing Tidal on the Aurender app is not that obvious... Visually, I also prefer Lumin's.
The Aurender app is *fast*, since it doesn't need to be fetching files over the network, everything happens instantaneously.
And the Aurender is still the #1 app in stability, along with Linn Kazoo when used with Linn devices. It just works, always. That's as much a function of the Aurender hardware as of the software, but still...

**Mike** · November 14, 2015, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by asiufy

They are very different. The Lumin UI is slicker, and overall, more intuitive. For instance, acessing Tidal on the Aurender app is not that obvious... Visually, I also prefer Lumin's.
The Aurender app is *fast*, since it doesn't need to be fetching files over the network, everything happens instantaneously.
And the Aurender is still the #1 app in stability, along with Linn Kazoo when used with Linn devices. It just works, always. That's as much a function of the Aurender hardware as of the software, but still...

I agree, they are both great. I don't have any issues with either in terms of usability, stability, etc.

Your decision is on simplicity and sonics of a streamer vs music player + DAC + cables.

The Aurender allows DAC flexibility (you can still retain your DAC of the month membership). The Lumin is "set and forget", just sit back and enjoy, less boxes and great sound in one box.

**bmichels** · November 15, 2015, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

... he showed me the upcoming releases for the app and it's fantastic! Aurender also has some other goodies up their sleeve. Stay tuned.

Is it the version that include ROON ?

**Mike** · November 15, 2015, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by bmichels

Is it the version that include ROON ?

Not yet.

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**bpw** · November 15, 2015, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by bmichels

Is it the version that include ROON ?

Roon has not yet released their software development kit (SDK), to my knowledge.
Other streaming services are coming, though. For example Qobuz is in a special version of the Conductor app available to dealers, although I do not know if it is ready for prime time.
Keep in mind, though, other streaming services can be streamed to an Aurender via AirPlay, since Aurenders are set up to work with AirPlay.

**RLL1** · November 20, 2015, 04:57 PM

Ok, I've had the N10 for a week now, and I am thrilled. The most obvious improvement I noticed was the full and punchy bass. I had spent a lot of time dialing in my Rel's prior to the Aurender, and was very satisfied with my results, but this is a step up to the next level. I have always been on the fence regarding the most important component in ones system, but the N10 definitely has me leaning toward the source component.

**Mike** · November 20, 2015, 05:11 PM

Rick - that's great to hear! Did you buy it from Mark Jones at Audio By Mark Jones?

**RLL1** · November 20, 2015, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Rick - that's great to hear! Did you buy it from Mark Jones at Audio By Mark Jones?

No Mike, not from Mark. I have been dealing with a fellow in Kingston for a number of years, who is also an Aurender dealer.

**dminches** · November 21, 2015, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by RLL1

Ok, I've had the N10 for a week now, and I am thrilled. The most obvious improvement I noticed was the full and punchy bass. I had spent a lot of time dialing in my Rel's prior to the Aurender, and was very satisfied with my results, but this is a step up to the next level. I have always been on the fence regarding the most important component in ones system, but the N10 definitely has me leaning toward the source component.

What were you using before the N10?

**RLL1** · November 21, 2015, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by dminches

What were you using before the N10?

I was using a Bryston BDP-1.

**skolis** · November 21, 2015, 08:40 PM

Has anyone compared the N10 with AES output vs USB output, and if so, have a POV?

**Mike** · November 21, 2015, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by skolis

Has anyone compared the N10 with AES output vs USB output, and if so, have a POV?

I have - sort of. In testing with my Berkeley Ref DAC going AES/EBU from N10 and USB from N10 to Alpha USB and then AES/EBU from Alpha USB to BADA ref.

The AES/EBU is the recommended input of the BADA ref and by simplifying the signal path, I found better imaging of vocals, instruments and more. I found better separation and a tighter focus overall and ever so slightly quieter.

But let me state, the differences were minute at best.

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**skolis** · November 24, 2015, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

I have - sort of. In testing with my Berkeley Ref DAC going AES/EBU from N10 and USB from N10 to Alpha USB and then AES/EBU from Alpha USB to BADA ref.

The AES/EBU is the recommended input of the BADA ref and by simplifying the signal path, I found better imaging of vocals, instruments and more. I found better separation and a tighter focus overall and ever so slightly quieter.

But let me state, the differences were minute at best.

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Interesting... Assuming I'm understanding correctly (a big assumption) - - - current TAS issue review of the W20 preferred the USB out, (same path described here) to the Berkeley Alpha DAC Reference. So I'm concluding this is going to be "device dependent", and per usual, will need to listen to compare/reach a conclusion. Thx.
(anyone have a reco for a good - under $500 - AES interconnect?)

**Mike** · November 24, 2015, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by skolis

Interesting... Assuming I'm understanding correctly (a big assumption) - - - current TAS issue review of the W20 preferred the USB out, (same path described here) to the Berkeley Alpha DAC Reference. So I'm concluding this is going to be "device dependent", and per usual, will need to listen to compare/reach a conclusion. Thx.
(anyone have a reco for a good - under $500 - AES interconnect?)

I read that too and was surprised. I A/B the two and concluded the AES/EBU direct from the N10 was best. What's interesting is that Robert Harley doesn't specifically state he tried the AES/EBU direct from the W20 to the BADA Ref (unless I missed it). If the best (or tied for the best) digital output of the Aurender is arguably the AES/EBU and the best digital input of the BADA Ref is AES/EBU (this is coming from Berkeley themselves), then how on earth would using USB and another box in between and another cable be optimal? I will admit, more testing and research needs to be done on my end....but first impressions point to the shortest path via AES/EBU.

One caveat....I need to determine whether USB from N10 to Berkeley Alpha USB with the Regen in the middle (a third box!) improves things over AES/EBU to AES/EBU.

**bpw** · November 24, 2015, 01:06 PM

Another consideration is that to use USB with a Berkeley you have to buy another box (Alpha USB) and associated cabling.

**asindc** · November 24, 2015, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

I read that too and was surprised. I A/B the two and concluded the AES/EBU direct from the N10 was best. What's interesting is that Robert Harley doesn't specifically state he tried the AES/EBU direct from the W20 to the BADA Ref (unless I missed it). If the best (or tied for the best) digital output of the Aurender is arguably the AES/EBU and the best digital input of the BADA Ref is AES/EBU (this is coming from Berkeley themselves), then how on earth would using USB and another box in between and another cable be optimal? I will admit, more testing and research needs to be done on my end....but first impressions point to the shortest path via AES/EBU.

One caveat....I need to determine whether USB from N10 to Berkeley Alpha USB with the Regen in the middle (a third box!) improves things over AES/EBU to AES/EBU.

Mike,

I can tell you that using a Regen between my Mac Mini and Berkeley USB was a major improvement that matched the hype it gets here and elsewhere.

**Mike** · November 24, 2015, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by asindc

Mike,

I can tell you that using a Regen between my Mac Mini and Berkeley USB was a major improvement that matched the hype it gets here and elsewhere.

I will definitely give it a go.

**Morten** · November 24, 2015, 02:21 PM

Hallo, I used a Regen when I had a PC, after my N100H arrived it have been sold, I think Aurender knows how to make the USB output, it sounds more relaxed without the Regen, when the Regen is in the chain I find it gives fatigue after some time, it seams to be "artificially" detailed.

My DAC/AMP is a Devialet

Kind regards Morten

**skolis** · November 24, 2015, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

... If the best (or tied for the best) digital output of the Aurender is arguably the AES/EBU and the best digital input of the BADA Ref is AES/EBU (this is coming from Berkeley themselves), then how on earth would using USB and another box in between and another cable be optimal? .....

yeah, that would been my a priori assumption. Wonder if there's there's different characteristics between W20 and N10.

**bpw** · November 24, 2015, 09:49 PM

Performance with USB depends upon the quality of implementation of USB on both the sending and receiving ends. Single wire AES/EBU does not have the bandwidth to handle DSD. Dual wire does.

**skolis** · November 25, 2015, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by bpw

Performance with USB depends upon the quality of implementation of USB on both the sending and receiving ends. Single wire AES/EBU does not have the bandwidth to handle DSD. Dual wire does.

ok pls forgive my naivete - how does that explain the different conclusions from the W20 and the N10? does that mean that the USB out is better on the W20? And I missed the reference to single and dual wire - who tested that? Sorry if I am missing something obvious.

**bpw** · November 25, 2015, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by skolis

ok pls forgive my naivete - how does that explain the different conclusions from the W20 and the N10? does that mean that the USB out is better on the W20? And I missed the reference to single and dual wire - who tested that? Sorry if I am missing something obvious.

I have no experience with the dual wire AES/EBU output of the W20 since I do not have a DAC with it, however my comments about single vs. dual wire are based upon information from Aurender. dCS and a few others have dual wire inputs. Please explain your question about "different conclusions from the W20 and the N10." Are you referring to their AES/EBU outputs? As for the USB outputs on both models, they are similar but not identical due to differences in power supplies, however the results are very close.

**Mike** · November 25, 2015, 01:17 AM

We are confusing the issue here. If you have a DAC that is optimized for AES/EBU (like the Berkeley Reference DAC), then going using the AES/EBU output from the N10 to the Berkeley has been, in my experience, sonically superior. That being said, I need to put the Berkeley Alpha USB with the REGEN back in the system and compare.

**bpw** · November 25, 2015, 10:02 AM

There's no confusion except to understand skolis's question. USB allows for DSD 128 and PCM 384 playback, which is not possible with AES/EBU. Aurender does a very good job on all outputs, so it should really be more of a convenience than a necessity as far as which output to use.

**Mike** · November 25, 2015, 11:49 AM

Skolis was referring to the specific combination of Aurender and Berkeley which Robert Harley reviewed together. The Berkeley DAC itself has no USB connection, (only AES/EBU and BNC). The assumption made was that sonics would be best via AES/EBU from the Aurender instead of adding a third box, and a additional cable: the Berkeley Alpha USB, into the mix. There was no discussion or mention of the necessity to play DSD 128 or PCM 384 files.

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**dminches** · November 25, 2015, 11:56 AM

It is impossible to draw any general conclusions about the differences among each of Aurender's digital outputs when measured with one specific DAC since that DAC could clearly have a preferred input. Each assessment is specific to the DAC with which DAC it is used.

**Mike** · November 25, 2015, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by dminches

It is impossible to draw any general conclusions about the differences among each of Aurender's digital outputs when measured with one specific DAC since that DAC could clearly have a preferred input. Each assessment is specific to the DAC with which DAC it is used.

Agreed!

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**bpw** · November 25, 2015, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by dminches

It is impossible to draw any general conclusions about the differences among each of Aurender's digital outputs when measured with one specific DAC since that DAC could clearly have a preferred input. Each assessment is specific to the DAC with which DAC it is used.

And whether the DAC does DSD.

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