Air Tight vs VTL vs Triode Corp of Japan

**Mike** · May 5, 2015, 05:46 PM

Any thoughts on these three brands?

Do you prefer one over another? Why?

Which one has that classic tube sound?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Bruce** · May 5, 2015, 08:21 PM

I'd Pass on the VTL's--too slow-- every time I've heard them they give me the impression they are struggling to keep up with the music

Sorry

Bruce

**Paul** · May 5, 2015, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce

I'd Pass on the VTL's--too slow-- every time I've heard them they give me the impression they are struggling to keep up with the music

Sorry

Bruce

+1

**cmalak** · May 5, 2015, 08:44 PM

Bruce/Paul...which models did you hear and with what speakers?

**tunes** · May 5, 2015, 10:13 PM

Love AirTight. Gorgeous build.

**Paul** · May 5, 2015, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by cmalak

Bruce/Paul...which models did you hear and with what speakers?

I heard them several times Cyril and since It didn't suit my taste I didn't bother to check LOL

Sorry can't be much help

**a.wayne** · May 5, 2015, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce

I'd Pass on the VTL's--too slow-- every time I've heard them they give me the impression they are struggling to keep up with the music

Sorry

Bruce

Agree some what on the VTL, Luke will not be happy to hear , but i feel the same , not struggling per say , just soft , a bit laid back ,a bit tame sounding, granted i have only heard them on Wilson's ,(2 different systems) others have said the same to me with other speakers ....

**Mike** · May 5, 2015, 11:33 PM

Very interesting. Has anyone compared Air Tight to Triode Corp?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**KeithR** · May 5, 2015, 11:53 PM

I've owned the Tri 845SE - it was soft and lacked dynamics despite weighing 85lbs and even after rolling tubes. Voicing, not parts IMO.

I would look at the Dehavilland KE50s if the Scala's can run on them- think Garrett Hongo compares them with Air Tight in a review, so you could figure which one seems more your taste. I have not personally had either in my system. BAT might be another option to research too?

**Dpod4** · May 6, 2015, 12:05 AM

I think Garrett would agree an air tight amp driven by air tight preamp has a synergy that would beat the dehavilands

**KeithR** · May 6, 2015, 12:42 AM

Who knows- have to ask Garrett. He's reviewed a bunch of P/P tube amps (AT, Vac, EAR, DH, etc) and I think articulates the differences nicely.

Prob also depends if you like EL34s or KT88s?

I always wanted to try the AT 211s...

**Bruce** · May 6, 2015, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by cmalak

Bruce/Paul...which models did you hear and with what speakers?

Blimey where to start !--well the worst I've experienced them was a Stereophile Show in a Hotel Near LAX about 93/94 I reckon

It was the VTL Suite running Master tapes into Klipschorn's --I cannot recall the exact Models of Electronics but they were all VTL--the sound was frankly hard to bear

And I'm sorry to say it's been all downhill from there

--yes even the RMAF Wilson demos with the latest VTL's in attendance sounded two dimensional --I've heard Wilson's sounding better

Your other two choices are far superior in my opinion

YVMV

Good Luck

**RonR** · May 6, 2015, 05:04 AM

I have owned VTL MB-750s since approximately 1995. I loved them then and I love them now. They are transparent, extended at the frequency extremes and amazing in the midrange (not traditionally "tubey" as in "fuzzy," but natural and liquid (especially in triode mode) and not artificial or dry (i.e., VTL will not be mistaken for transistors.).

I concede that VTLs do not have the finesse of low power tube amps such as those from Lamm. If your speakers have low-sensitivity (e.g., Magnepan, Martin-Logan) then high-power VTLs may be your only option.

Importantly, Luke Manley is very helpful if any issues develop. I am quite certain he will keep my 750w amplifiers operating for as long as I operate.

Over the years, Wilson Audio, Martin-Logan and Transparent Cable have often demonstrated their products on VTLs.

**a.wayne** · May 6, 2015, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by Bruce

Blimey where to start !--well the worst I've experienced them was a Stereophile Show in a Hotel Near LAX about 93/94 I reckon

It was the VTL Suite running Master tapes into Klipschorn's --I cannot recall the exact Models of Electronics but they were all VTL--the sound was frankly hard to bear

And I'm sorry to say it's been all downhill from there

--yes even the RMAF Wilson demos with the latest VTL's in attendance sounded two dimensional --I've heard Wilson's sounding better

Your other two choices are far superior in my opinion

YVMV

Good Luck

Would have to have been 93, the 94 show was in fl .....

**mep** · May 6, 2015, 03:13 PM

Funny how sometimes it's OK to say you don't like a product from a major high-end company (like VTL in this instance) knowing that other people on this forum own their products and other times we are told that we have to be sensitive to hurting other people's feelings when we have less than stellar things to say about components from a company that other people on this forum also own. I hope that RonR won't require years of therapy to get over the unkind remarks about the sound quality of VTL products.

**Mike** · May 6, 2015, 03:17 PM

In the world of tubes, today it seems there is ARC and then...everyone else. I'm trying to figure out who is tops and desired in the "everyone else" category.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**atmasphere** · May 6, 2015, 03:25 PM

I *was* sort of wonder why the specific brands of this thread when there are so many out there...

**KeithR** · May 6, 2015, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

In the world of tubes, today it seems there is ARC and then...everyone else. I'm trying to figure out who is tops and desired in the "everyone else" category.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most of these brands are boutique unless you're talking ARC, VTL, and CJ.

How about the CAT JL5 that you guys heard at Axpona? Its not so hot/unwieldy as the JL2. How many watts do you require?

**atmasphere** · May 6, 2015, 04:30 PM

These days about anything with tubes in it is likely boutique...

**a.wayne** · May 6, 2015, 04:32 PM

Well there are others to ARC , as a matter of fact ARC/ VTL are pretty much par IMO, other favorites are VAC , BAT ,Then everyone raving now over the Kronzilla Stuff and Lamm to name a few. With tooobs, it's not as simple as whats best , there's low powered and high powered , pentode, triode , OTL, hybrids, push-pull and the often addictive SET's ...

I think picking whats best is much dependent on topology of choice, SETs for eg, I was pretty happy with the cary 805b's and thought them the best for SET's at that time...

Ohh, then There's Ralph, OTL OF CHOICE ...

regards

**Mike** · May 6, 2015, 04:53 PM

a.wayne - I'm speaking of brands that people want/buy. I know fully of what you're speaking about regarding different tube amps and utilization - I've owned them all.

Air Tight vs VTL vs Triode Corp of Japan

But I'm looking at a brand.

VAC - local to me, but I prefer the old VAC sound and they've gone a bit crazy with pricing.
BAT - music direct now.
LAMM - AMAZING - but kind of pricey
Kondo - see above

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**mep** · May 6, 2015, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

In the world of tubes, today it seems there is ARC and then...everyone else. I'm trying to figure out who is tops and desired in the "everyone else" category.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mike-You started off this thread by asking about 3 particular tube gear manufacturers and asked which one had the "classic tube sound." I think that led some people to believe that you had narrowed down your choices to the original 3 you mentioned. I guess you really need to define what you mean when you say "classic tube sound." Classic from the 1950s, 1960s, or some later period? Classic sound of a push-pull amp using triodes, pentodes, or tetrodes? Classic SE sound using 300B, 211, or 845 tubes? Do you want modern day tube bass extension and slam with extended high frequency response or are you looking for something on the mushy side of the bass spectrum and rolled off on top that still manages to sound euphonic?

**Mike** · May 6, 2015, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by mep

Mike-You started off this thread by asking about 3 particular tube gear manufacturers and asked which one had the "classic tube sound." I think that led some people to believe that you had narrowed down your choices to the original 3 you mentioned. I guess you really need to define what you mean when you say "classic tube sound." Classic from the 1950s, 1960s, or some later period? Classic sound of a push-pull amp using triodes, pentodes, or tetrodes? Classic SE sound using 300B, 211, or 845 tubes? Do you want modern day tube bass extension and slam with extended high frequency response or are you looking for something on the mushy side of the bass spectrum and rolled off on top that still manages to sound euphonic?

I find a lot of the modern tube amps sound real close to solid state. If you're going to go that route - than why bother with tubes and the fuss and muss? I'm speaking of classic tube sound - like Shindo, Jadis, etc.

What I know about Air Tight is that some of their amps sound more modern and others like the ATM-3 have that classic tube sound. Good mix there.

I like the tube sound of the old CJ amp I had, the older classic VAC amps, Shindo, etc.

Different strokes...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**KeithR** · May 6, 2015, 05:44 PM

I'd say Vac is the "hot" tube brand right now. I didn't mention it because you have already owned and sold them.

**mep** · May 6, 2015, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

I find a lot of the modern tube amps sound real close to solid state. If you're going to go that route - than why bother with tubes and the fuss and muss? I'm speaking of classic tube sound - like Shindo, Jadis, etc.

What I know about Air Tight is that some of their amps sound more modern and others like the ATM-3 have that classic tube sound. Good mix there.

I like the tube sound of the old CJ amp I had, the older classic VAC amps, Shindo, etc.

Different strokes...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I never thought of Jadis as having the "classic tube sound." My definition of "modern tube amps" is an amplifier that has bass extension and definition that comes closer to the sound of the better SS amps (although no one should say that current tube amps on the market can reproduce the bottom two octaves the same as a great SS amp) as well as having extended high frequency reproduction while simultaneously having a noise floor which rivals the best of SS. But (and this is a big but), the tube amp still does the holographic effect with instruments and voices in a way that still eludes SS along with reproducing the complete palette of harmonics from every instrument that also escapes SS.

**Mike** · May 6, 2015, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by KeithR

I'd say Vac is the "hot" tube brand right now. I didn't mention it because you have already owned and sold them.

The VAC 450iq amps are insanely good....but insanely priced!

**MusicDirector** · May 6, 2015, 11:37 PM

Well, I just have to say that I like the aesthetics of some of the Air-Tight amps. I've been researching lately and they came up. They have that 60s metallic green sort of steampunk color and a big ol gold colored meter slapped right in the middle, ah yeah! I also like the looks of the Triode ones too in a different way.
I know, I know it's about sound, but I've never heard a tube set up and would not know if it came up and bit my nose. Although, I may have to make sure I have bandages for my nose, because that may happen before long!

I just had to say something about the aesthetics on these as I think they are kind of nice looking. I don't know about the Triodes, but I know I'll never afford the Air-Tights, but they are still pretty. I don't know that I would ever want to get involved in tubes, but I would not mind hearing some for giggles.
Just sayin.

**RonR** · May 7, 2015, 06:24 AM

Dear mep,

Thank you for the comment. But I just think of it as "that's what makes horse racing.. I don't see why anyone would be sensitive to criticism of one's preferred equipment.

One man's "just soft, a bit laid back, a bit tame sounding" is my sonic perfection! : )

**a.wayne** · May 7, 2015, 07:25 AM

Nirvana on the right speakers .....

**CPP** · May 7, 2015, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

The VAC 450iq amps are insanely good....but insanely priced!

yep, $58,000 is nuts for an amp.

**Mike** · May 7, 2015, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by CPP

yep, $58,000 is nuts for an amp.

It does sound great and has won some awards - even my own for best of show at CES 2014, but a KT88/6SN7 just doesn't make me want to jump up and down to pay that kind of money. Maybe for a 211 Kondo Kagura. The 211 is very special, probably my all around favorite tube. The KT88 is good, and I prefer it over the KT120, but holy cow there are loads of great sounding KT88 amps for a lot less - like a sweet sounding pair of 275 mk6's (KT88/12AX7/12AT7).

And from what I've heard, the KT150 is a better tube sonically than the KT88. Of course a badly implemented KT150 amp will sound worse than a excellent KT88 amp....but speaking in general terms, I quite like the KT150. I love what Nick has done with his Doshi v3 amps to take full advantage of the KT150 tube.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Mike Lavigne** · May 7, 2015, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by CPP

yep, $58,000 is nuts for an amp.

well; you do actually get 2 for $58k, not just one. so what is there to complain about?

**Mike** · May 7, 2015, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

well; you do actually get 2 for $58k, not just one. so what is there to complain about?

Not exactly. That's $58,000 EACH.

See: CES 2013: VAC | Confessions of a Part-Time Audiophile

**Mike Lavigne** · May 7, 2015, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

Not exactly. That's $58,000 EACH.

See: CES 2013: VAC | Confessions of a Part-Time Audiophile

ok; my bad. I did not realize that.

i don't feel so bad about the $$$'s for my amps then.

**a.wayne** · May 7, 2015, 10:37 AM

Well someone must be buying and paying for those yearly re toobs, SOTA anything was never cheap and will never be cheap or affordable.

**KeithR** · May 7, 2015, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

It does sound great and has won some awards - even my own for best of show at CES 2014, but a KT88/6SN7 just doesn't make me want to jump up and down to pay that kind of money. Maybe for a 211 Kondo Kagura. The 211 is very special, probably my all around favorite tube. The KT88 is good, and I prefer it over the KT120, but holy cow there are loads of great sounding KT88 amps for a lot less - like a sweet sounding pair of 275 mk6's (KT88/12AX7/12AT7).

And from what I've heard, the KT150 is a better tube sonically than the KT88. Of course a badly implemented KT150 amp will sound worse than a excellent KT88 amp....but speaking in general terms, I quite like the KT150. I love what Nick has done with his Doshi v3 amps to take full advantage of the KT150 tube.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

KT88s are nice as you have both NOS and new options like EATs that are REALLY good (and really expensive). You're stuck with 1 tube on KT150s. Honestly, that Vac doesn't impress me much- and the biasing thing isn't that important. A much simpler circuit will likely sound better for far less $ and the pricing is whack. I feel the same way about ARC 750s and the big VTLs.

I was looking at Audiogon last night in the tube amp department...most interesting to me are the Nagra P/P 845s and perhaps the set of Shindo Sinfonias (Matt @ PPA also has a used pair). BAT Rex and EAR 890 are other interesting P/P options.

**rbbert** · May 7, 2015, 11:54 AM

Viva (from Italy) is another tube amp company worth considering. Only occasionally reviewed but almost always very positively IIRC. They usually show (Profundo Audio) at Newport.

**Paul** · May 7, 2015, 11:57 AM

Mike .... consider New Audio Frontiers... Its excellent product and sound.

**bonzo** · May 7, 2015, 12:02 PM

I would suggest checking out NAT audio from Serbia. From factory direct they retail at 40% of the RRP, and the Tiangle Art's Tim Vu sells them in the US.

The entry level NAT pre is rated 2 in Germany, at 7k EUR rrp, next to Ypsilon's 23k rrp. Their top line Magnetostat SE is rated 1 by those who have owned high level Kondos, next only to Wavac. I know someone who has owned Lamm, VTL 7.5 mk IIIs, VTL siegfrieds, Einstein, and loves NAT much more. That is what he ended up with for the long run.

The NAT transmitter, which are SET valve mono blocks, 120w each, class A, were rated 1 in Germany, and retailed only at 16k EUR. They are 3rd in Line, with Magma and Magma SE at the top. They also do lower wattage amps, going down to 30w. The power amps have only one giant tube, as big as jug, to avoid the imbalance caused by different tubes going out of sync.

I have had a demo, their separation, dynamics, and bass will make ARC sound flat. The only thing is that their style is transparent, not as airy as ARC or Jadis, nor as euphonic. They are low noise, low distortion, clean, almost like SS. Jadis sounded distorted and muggy in comparison but is also beautiful

**cmalak** · May 7, 2015, 12:39 PM

Problem with brands like Viva and NAT and New Audio Frontiers is they have very limited dealer network and aftermarket support in USA, so any needed repairs is likely going to involve a trip back to home country (Serbia and Italy) and with very few dealers if you're amp is gone for 2 months for repairs, unlikely you will have a dealer who will give you a substitute amp while your unit is being repaired...

**bonzo** · May 7, 2015, 01:19 PM

I am scheduled to get a demo of Airtight vs Audionote on Avantgarde Trios sometime towards the end of May

**Mike** · May 7, 2015, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by bonzo

I am scheduled to get a demo of Airtight vs Audionote on Avantgarde Trios sometime towards the end of May

Thanks. Really looking forward to your comments.

**KeithR** · May 7, 2015, 03:19 PM

boy, has this thread gone astray.

**mep** · May 7, 2015, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by RonR

Dear mep,

Thank you for the comment. But I just think of it as "that's what makes horse racing.. I don't see why anyone would be sensitive to criticism of one's preferred equipment.

One man's "just soft, a bit laid back, a bit tame sounding" is my sonic perfection! : )

Ron-You obviously haven't been around audio forums very long.

There are lots of people who going crying to the mods if you say something negative about their darling baby-trust me. It doesn't even matter if their darling baby has a load in their diapers and flies are buzzing around its bottom, they only smell roses. Some people are perpetually offended by everything and everyone, and if they aren't currently offended, they are looking for a reason to be offended. That's why I made the comment I made on this thread about you possibly needing therapy after people referred to VTL amps as being slow, sluggish, can't keep the beat, etc., because you paid big money for the pair you own. And my point to saying that is I don't want to hear from mods telling me that when I tell the truth about a component on this forum that other people own that people are getting their feelings hurt and crying to the mods if suddenly it's OK to tell the truth about other components that other people own and now we aren't worried about their feelings. It doesn't make sense to me now and it never did.

And for the record, I never said that VTL amps are slow and sluggish and can't keep the beat. That sounds like an amp with crazy amounts of negative feedback and I know that VTL does not use crazy amounts of negative feedback.

**Myles B. Astor** · May 7, 2015, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by cmalak

Problem with brands like Viva and NAT and New Audio Frontiers is they have very limited dealer network and aftermarket support in USA, so any needed repairs is likely going to involve a trip back to home country (Serbia and Italy) and with very few dealers if you're amp is gone for 2 months for repairs, unlikely you will have a dealer who will give you a substitute amp while your unit is being repaired...

And what is their resale value?

**Bobolaclune** · May 7, 2015, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

And what is their resale value?

Approximately the same as the cost of shipping them back to their home country for repair ......

**KeithR** · May 7, 2015, 06:16 PM

international companies usually have an authorized repair person in the States- its part of the distributors job. FTR, ARC referred me to an LA repair guy when i had an issue with the LS 25- i didn't have to ship it to MN which was nice.

however, if resale is all you care about, buy ARC or McIntosh. nothing compares, period.

**Bobolaclune** · May 7, 2015, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by KeithR

international companies usually have an authorized repair person in the States- its part of the distributors job. FTR, ARC referred me to an LA repair guy when i had an issue with the LS 25- i didn't have to ship it to MN which was nice.

however, if resale is all you care about, buy ARC or McIntosh. nothing compares, period.

"however, if resale is all you care about" - can you tell me how you arrived at this conclusion? I think I have a high degree of proficiency in the English language and I can see no such inference or logical derived conclusion. I do believe the conversation has talked about issues related to Service, Support , sonic impressions , prices , etc. I think it naive to assume that potential resale is not at least one of the key factors audiophiles look at , they have been known from time to time to rotate through their gear. Ever seen a NAT amplifier ? Or a NAF ? Or better still, lifted one ? Many of these manufacturers do require shipping back to the home country , outgoing at the owners expense . Cost of shipping a 140 lb wooden crate to Serbia or Italy ? I'd say its significant and an audiophile would be foolish not to consider that as part of the purchase decision.

**KeithR** · May 7, 2015, 07:58 PM

All I am saying is you buy the company and its distributor. Rarely has to deal with how repairs are made.

This thread has really gotten off the mark- which was to delineate the most popular tube manufacturers outside of ARC. I'm going to politely bow out. Good luck with any decision, Mike.

**Mike** · May 7, 2015, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by KeithR

All I am saying is you buy the company and its distributor. Rarely has to deal with how repairs are made.

This thread has really gotten off the mark- which was to delineate the most popular tube manufacturers outside of ARC. I'm going to politely bow out. Good luck with any decision, Mike.

Please don't, you're making some good points and I agree with you on MC and ARC....their resale is excellent.

I do notice a LOT of VTL gear in the systems of Audiogon members (it's searchable). That tells me SOMEONE is buying VTL. I personally love their lower priced stuff (185 and the like).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thread: Air Tight vs VTL vs Triode Corp of Japan